[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[wnut]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I second the Indycar engine suggestion. It would be a great commonsense idea.

If they reduced the power to 700hp that would be good too, as it would require a pairing back of the draggy high downforce levels that some F1 fans seem to hate.

These days, the F1 car is 734kg compared to the Indycar's 730 kg. I am little shocked to learn F1 cars as heavy as Indycars now. The old Indycars always seemed so lumbering compared to the svelte F1 cars of old.

The F1 car might be around 40-50kg lighter in minimum weight trim without the battery and MGUH and K, but would have to carry 50kg more fuel at the start of the race of course.

I also thought that the Indycars looked to be lumbering around compared to the F1s.

During the V10 era the cars were down to 460Kg and then ballasted to the minimum weight of 505kg, and it is from this weight that they added about 40% more weight on the cars to get to 720kg needed to run hybrids.

The total KERS deployment over a race adds up to the energy contained in less than 5 liters of petrol, so I think that saving more than 200 kg of weight should more than make up for any "economy" produced by the 200 kg of KERS junk, all the current economy is really as a result of the engines.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by wnut

During the V10 era the cars were down to 460Kg and then ballasted to the minimum weight of 505kg,

Nonsense. Minimum weight was 605kg.

The weight difference between the Ferrari F1 car from 2013 to 2014 is 49kg.

[Adam43]

I’m not interested in the posturing about this, but I am interested in that fact. wnut can you give a source or two to help Sprinkles?

If they could get down to 460kg and allowing for the engine and base ancillaries being just under 100kg I’d be very impressed if the base chassis was 360ish kg. I’d like to check my little theory.

[wnut]

Hi Adam, the 1987 turbo F1 cars had a minimum weight of 540kg, and the normally aspirated 3.5 litre V8 cars weighed 500kg. (The NA cars ran as much as 40 liters of water for “brake cooling” which they simply jettisoned during the warm up lap, ran light, and were allowed to top up fluids at the end of the race to attain their minimum weight. Williams and Brabham )
The McLaren Honda MP 4/5 3.5 liter V10 of 1990 weighed 500kg.
https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/344/McLaren-MP4-5-Honda.html
This limit was increased to 505 kg in 1993 to accommodate camera equipment on the cars, and then again to 515 kg in 1994 when fuel bladders were made compulsory (Can’t believe it was that late.).
For 1995 the rules were changed to include the weight of the driver, 70 kg and 10 kg in extra side impact protection which brought the now total weight up to 595 kg.
This article: https://www.grandprix.com/features/peter-wright/technical-preview-of-1995-formula1-cars-how-the-technical-regulations-have-influenced-design.html
by Peter Wright the ex Lotus Engineering director and FIA consultant, details the weight increase and how Ferrari went from steel to titanium to carbon fibre in 1993 to get approximately 20 kg to ballast the front of the car.
“The solution has been to reduce the weight of the engine/gearbox by as much as possible (the masses behind the CofG) and lighten the remainder of the car until it is 20+kg below the weight limit. The required ballast is then mounted forward of the CofG to adjust its position as desired.”
2004 the weight limit was increased to 600 kg with the engine capacity reduced to 3 litres.
The use of ballast is covered in this article: “The mad world of Formula 1 ballast.” From Grandprix.com 13 March 2000 describes the usage of ballast, and bemoans the cost. http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns02353.html
[FONT=Calibri]“With some of the top F1 cars these days carrying as much as 80 kgs of ballast.”[/FONT]
For 2004 the weight limit was increased to 600 kg with the engine capacity reduced to 3 litres with weight set at 600kg, with a minimum of 605 kg in qualifying trim, Compensation for 5 liters of fuel to be tested if required?
2006 the capacity was set to 2.4 litres.
2013 min weight was up to 642 kg
2014 min weight was up to 690 kg (Introduction of KERS systems)
2015 min weight was up to 701 kg
2017 min weight was up to 728 kg
2018 min weight was up to 734 kg (Compensation for HALO)
2019 min weight up to 740 kg – 660 kg without driver – 740 kg with driver – rumoured.

Hope this helps Adam, let me know how your theory pans out.

P.S. BMW's P83 engine used in 2003 season managed an impressive 19,200 rpm and cleared the 900 bhp (670 kW) mark and weighs less than 200 lb (91 kg).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines

[Adam43]

Cheers.

I think my 360kg ish is a little optimistic. Even if it without driver.

[wnut]

The following was proposed for the 2008 regulations, but was never adopted:

"The minimum weight is reduced from 605 to 550kg (Article 4).

Reason: To eliminate the cost of purchasing 55kg of very expensive high density ballast for each car and transporting it all over the world. Cars will also be safer without this extra weight."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/2008-technical-regulations/



If we knock the 70 kg that was previously added to the car to include the weight of the driver the actual cars would have been built to a minimum weight of 480kg.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

None of that supports the nonsense that a hybrid system weighs over 200kg, which was his original point.

[Akrapovic]

The minimum weight of the full PU is 145kg. Mercedes hit the minimum in 2016, so you've got to assume it's still around that area. The battery weighs 20-25kg.

[S griffin]

I think they could do with lightening the cars a bit

[Casper]

The total power applied to the road should be set to where it becomes marginal to use more or less aero on different tracks.

As for the weight, draw a box and say to the designers the car has to fit in it with a maximum distance from the front axle to the front of the wing. All they are doing is using a bloody big lever by pushing the front wing so far out from the front axle. That way they can load the rear of the car with aero for balance and all because they have got the horsepower to spare.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...e-degradation/

'To improve the show'

It's like the Twilight Zone. Is there anyone who still thinks Liberty has any idea what the hell they're doing?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...e-degradation/

'To improve the show'

It's like the Twilight Zone. Is there anyone who still thinks Liberty has any idea what the hell they're doing?

Another gimmick, rather than dealing with the underlying problems within F1.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...e-degradation/

'To improve the show'

It's like the Twilight Zone. Is there anyone who still thinks Liberty has any idea what the hell they're doing?

If true, then we will be repeating history and having the same problems as before. Bring back the old days of 1/2 the comments being...

"Can't Pirelli make tires that last?!?!?!?"

...and the other 1/2 saying...

"They are just doing what has been asked of them"

Richard

[chillibowl]

Don't really recall 2011 being all that interesting of a season.

Now 2012 with the 7 different winners in the first 7 races...that was fun.

Gimmicks are the worst of course, but I don't mind these sorts of changes. Take away their knowledge base, lack of data for their simulators, prevent them from being so dialed in.

Changes like this hurt those that have money to burn and forces them to race the weekend.

I can live with the tire/Pirelli doing what they are told arguments. Some manufactured surprise isn't completely out of order imo.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Gimmicks are the worst of course, but I don't mind these sorts of changes. Take away their knowledge base, lack of data for their simulators, prevent them from being so dialed in.

Of course that only lasts for a few races.

[Peter Mallett]

Once again, moving the deck chairs on a sinking ship.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...e-degradation/

'To improve the show'

It's like the Twilight Zone. Is there anyone who still thinks Liberty has any idea what the hell they're doing?

Just a small point, but the way I read the article it's the FIA asking for the change, not Liberty...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Once again, moving the deck chairs on a sinking ship.

More like opening the sea cocks!

Anything to stop actual racing breaking out, back to cauliflowers.

[Sodemo]

Since when did the FIA have a clue what they were doing?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Since when did the FIA have a clue what they were doing?

Since a while before they sold all their F1 rights to Bernie?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Since a while before they sold all their F1 rights to Bernie?

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, don't forget that it was the European Union that forced the FIA to separate the commercial rights side from the sporting side. If the FIA had failed or refused to do so, the EU would have introduced significant sanctions and levied huge fines against the FIA.


However, Mosley virtually gave away the commercial rights rather than sell them to Mr. E.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, don't forget that it was the European Union that forced the FIA to separate the commercial rights side from the sporting side. If the FIA had failed or refused to do so, the EU would have introduced significant sanctions and levied huge fines against the FIA.


However, Mosley virtually gave away the commercial rights rather than sell them to Mr. E.

Is this the reason that was given for Max giving Bernie a present?
If so it is total news to me (not the first time), I thought it was just a "marketing deal" as Bernie was considered the only one capable of marketing F1s interests. The EU, you're sure of the timing Mike?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Is this the reason that was given for Max giving Bernie a present?
If so it is total news to me (not the first time), I thought it was just a "marketing deal" as Bernie was considered the only one capable of marketing F1s interests. The EU, you're sure of the timing Mike?

Yes, the EU had pretty well concluded their investigation into what they considered to be the anticompetitive conditions that existed within Formula 1, and pretty well gave the FIA an ultimatum that they either split the two functions or they would take draconian action. This was on the back of complaints by one or more of the teams back then.


And this was why there was a bit of a storm during the Liberty takeover when it was disclosed that Mr E had gifted 1% of the shares in FOM (or whatever the controlling company was) to the FIA. This is because the FIA was supposed to have no financial interest in the commercial rights side of F1.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Yes, the EU had pretty well concluded their investigation into what they considered to be the anticompetitive conditions that existed within Formula 1, and pretty well gave the FIA an ultimatum that they either split the two functions or they would take draconian action. This was on the back of complaints by one or more of the teams back then.


And this was why there was a bit of a storm during the Liberty takeover when it was disclosed that Mr E had gifted 1% of the shares in FOM (or whatever the controlling company was) to the FIA. This is because the FIA was supposed to have no financial interest in the commercial rights side of F1.

Thanks for the education Mike, much appreciated, did not know this.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks for the education Mike, much appreciated, did not know this.

You are very welcome. And there was a bit more to the story as well, with the French authorities, no doubt to assist the EU in their dealings with the FIA, used to the USA's way of dealing with Al Capone by threatening the FIA with punitive tax charges and fines.


This was why the FIA temporarily re-located to Switzerland from Paris until the settlement was reached between all the parties.


The commercial rights were sold to Mr E for something like $360 million on payment terms, and I assume that BCE has actually paid the full amount by now. Not a bad investment for Bernie.


But who knows what the FIA may have got if they had actually put the sale out to tender/auction?