LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Giba

Surprised about Dallara as there were rumours that they hadn't even put a bid in.

Perhaps the rumours were true. With the transparency of it all we'll never know if the selection process even took place after or before the original "proposal" announcement. This would also explain the expediteness of the entire process.

step 1. gather a cartel to carve up a certain market (LM P2 in this case)
step 2. come up with a formal procedure to make it look legit (after the fact)
step 3. pretend this is for the greater good, ignore all the criticism (when you have no case to argue, there's a chance you'll get away with things if you just shut up push on, the critics will get bored and move on eventually)

I've seen this in politics so many times.

[Deleted]

Even if there actually was such process, there were ever only 2 places in it anyway since the two French companies had obviously lobbyed this whole idea to the ACO and bought their way in in the first place.

[TRspitfirefan]

It is interesting that two out of the four favored manufacturers are existing Daytuna Prototype brands. That suggests to me that the new IMSA folks from Florida had more to do with the creation of this rotten ruleset than previously thought.
Also the similarities to the old Grand Am DP, "approved" near spec chassis+decorations style of going budget prototype racing is telling. Just more of the same mindset of "spectacle rather than sporting competition".


Given the damage already done to the sport, this quote from Scott Atherton on SC365 is a bit unnerving.

......it represents a key landmark as we chart the future of the sport in the United States and abroad. However, this is only the beginning.”

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Meh.

Also mr Fillion:
“Thanks to the decisions taken jointly by the ACO, IMSA and the FIA we have managed to bring together a high-quality pool of constructors which reinforces the interest in the series and its glowing future prospects -- These new regulations and the provisions that result from them, the first of which is the selection of the four chassis constructors, will lead to more competitive cars, an efficient, cost-capped, viable economic model, a global market for cars that can race in North America, in Asia and in Europe allied to an excellent level of service for the entrants.”

[Jam3s]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Until 2019 I don't see much incentive to run a current spec P2 in Asia instead of Europe.

To have any real chance at winning you'll need a new spec P2 for 17 onwards. A lot of the cars in ELMS are getting long in the tooth now too.

I know of 4 likelies in P2 at this stage for AsLMS this year, can only see that grow as the old cars filter out of ELMS.

[BTCC 318d]

to have Dallara and not someone actually currently involved is a travesty. I just hope that this shoves the engines to them so a great part of the sport doesn't get killed off.

[Deleted]

I just thought, wouldn't it be funny if say Dallara ended up fielding like 14 cars at Le Mans because of *reasons* and Oreca & Oak would only have couple of entries in the field, like 2-3? Because while four makes obviously limits the possibilities down, it doesn't mean one is automatically gonna choose Oreca or Oak. It could almost be worth all this headache to see Hughes's face at that point.

[MagVanisher]

Well, it's expected that Dallara becomes the last constructor. But with concerns that they firm might churn more LMP2 cars than either OAK or Oreca, it's not going so well for the class.

Also, while I want both French constructors to do a joint-bid together much like Riley-Multimatic, the damage is already done. Honestly, both OAK and Oreca might lose the battle against the mighty Dallara in terms of car counts.

[littleman]

Although these 2017 regs do go against my natural instinct for truly open competition, in reality they're not going to make that much difference.

Any competitive team, seriously committed to winning in LMP2, will surely want an Oreca or Ligier already. They will probably want a Nissan engine to go with it too.

The various offerings' from HPD have been out of favour for some time now,the Gibson has a finite life expectancy and the Dome......well, it was worth the gamble but it just hasn't worked out....who the hell wants one of those!

Numerous others keep talking about P2 projects but precious few ever see the light of day. Like it or not, since the demise of Lola, Oreca, and more recently Oak, have been the default LMP2 supplier anyway.

[Starfish Primer]

If any manufacturer is not happy they can always try to denounce the ACO to the EU commissioner of competence.

Anyway as Littleman has explained the market itself was moving to a Oreca/Ligier-Nissan majority. I don´t see too much difference.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

If any manufacturer is not happy they can always try to denounce the ACO to the EU commissioner of competence.

Anyway as Littleman has explained the market itself was moving to a Oreca/Ligier-Nissan majority. I don´t see too much difference.

The difference is choice. The teams are having their decisions made for them instead of choosing on their own. If they choose Oreca Nissan for themselves fine, but mandating that is something else. Also, what if a new team or builder or engine manufacturer wanted to play? That is also not allowed any longer.


To me, a large piece of the sportscar spirit is being lost here. And that's a shame.

[joeb]

Just thinking about this more, what if the ACO came out and said only 4 manufacturers were allowed in GTE how would you feel? Would you say, that's fine Ferrari, Porsche, Aston and Corvette are the only ones there anyways?

It's slippery slope of you ask me.

[TF110]

I think gte is meant for manufacturers because it has a pro (sub)class. Lmp2 isnt where pros and manufacturers need to be. But ya never know what the future holds.

[TzeiTzei]

I think I've got over this thing by now. It is what it is. Atleast we will hopefully see 4 different cars and a strong grid.

I really really really hope that we will see more cars in privateer LMP1 class because of this. But for that to happen, the ACO needs to make it more attractive for the teams and small manufacturers. Prize money, more tv coverage, more prestige, whatever they can to offer some value for teams to actually run in that class. After throwing the small manufacturers and more ambitious teams out of LMP2, they really need to do that. Otherwise, come 2017 the whole prototype grid of WEC will pretty much be the big car manufacturers LMP1 and pro-am teams running customer cars in LMP2. There is a big gap there and that needs to be filled.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by littleman

Although these 2017 regs do go against my natural instinct for truly open competition, in reality they're not going to make that much difference.

With multiple manufacturers, who spent millions on developing new cars being flushed down the toilet in one very shady move, which was reportedly decided and sealed as early as January (including the names of selected manufacturers), it makes a huge difference not only for LMP2 but for all classes in WEC, Le Mans and anything ACO ever does. Because the constructors that survive this, will think twice before ever risking getting involved with the ACO. And the word will spread in the industry, if it already didn't. The more I think about this, the more I realize that it's a complete game changer for Le Mans style racing as we know it.

Originally Posted by TF110

But ya never know what the future holds.

And that's precisely the problem from now on.

[carbsmith]

Once you go Dallara you never go back.

Almost makes you wonder how much the FIA actually had to do with this, considering GP2, GP3, F3, FE... It's a bigger problem across motorsport than just sports car racing, and even there Class 1 has had it for a couple years now.

[carbon_titanium]

you can't blame dallara if the italian company is the best in his work!
before 2014, all audi lmp1 (all but R8C) monocoque were made by dallara.

[littleman]

The conspiracy theorists on this post appear to be ignoring one absolutely key fact - LMP2 is a cost capped category.

No manufacturer can make it financially viable unless they can sell at least 8 to 10 units plus the associated spares & support package.

The Strakka Dome is no doubt cost capped, but I bet they've spent a few million already trying to develop it.........and nobody will ever buy another one!

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by littleman

Although these 2017 regs do go against my natural instinct for truly open competition, in reality they're not going to make that much difference.

Any competitive team, seriously committed to winning in LMP2, will surely want an Oreca or Ligier already. They will probably want a Nissan engine to go with it too.

The various offerings' from HPD have been out of favour for some time now,the Gibson has a finite life expectancy and the Dome......well, it was worth the gamble but it just hasn't worked out....who the hell wants one of those!

Numerous others keep talking about P2 projects but precious few ever see the light of day. Like it or not, since the demise of Lola, Oreca, and more recently Oak, have been the default LMP2 supplier anyway.

This is completely missing the point. This move removes any incentive for an aspiring (or established) racing car constructor from even considering a Le Mans prototype. Single seater racing is already a barren mono-culture of Dallaras and dumb spec series, and now sportscars are heading the same way.

Where do the new ideas come from? What does the next Adrian Newey/Colin Chapman/Ben Bowlby/Nick Wirth do? Certainly not start out on his own. Ewan Baldry has joined Ginetta. He wouldn't be able to develop his Junos into LMP3s on his own because the new 5 constructor limit in that class will specify production run and customer support minimum capabilities.

This is a horrible development. For lots of reasons.

[littleman]

I share a lot of your views, but as an older contributor I've come to realise that the halcyon days of Chapman,Cooper, etc etc building ingenious designs in lock-up garages has gone forever.

I think the use of exotic materials, and particularly the move to carbon fiber tubs and sophisticated aerodynamics, renders a "home brewed special" impossible. Throw hybrid technology and modern electronics into the mix and only a company with huge resources can produce a competitive, modern day racing car.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by littleman

I share a lot of your views, but as an older contributor I've come to realise that the halcyon days of Chapman,Cooper, etc etc building ingenious designs in lock-up garages has gone forever.

I think the use of exotic materials, and particularly the move to carbon fiber tubs and sophisticated aerodynamics, renders a "home brewed special" impossible. Throw hybrid technology and modern electronics into the mix and only a company with huge resources can produce a competitive, modern day racing car.

You're speaking of current LMP2 as it would be some sort of unlimited technology wonderland. No, it's tightly controlled as it is to meet the cost caps, much more than in 2010 and before. And there is no hybrid technology nor super aero or anything fancy. However, it has still been completely free in terms of choosing chassis, engine, tyre and (for the most part) component partners. Now it is going down the toilet. Because of greed.

By the way, even to this day there are still "home brewed" P2 cars coming out of 3 men garages in the middle of nowhere, ever looked into Pilbeam for example?

[littleman]

Firstly, P2 isn't going down the toilet and secondly the 2017 regs aren't about greed, they're about financial viability for long term manufacturers who need to justify the significant investment required in their business.

If the "new" P2 category doesn't appeal to any well-healed privateer teams who still want absolute freedom of choice, then there are always alternatives which can cater for their needs.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by littleman

Firstly, P2 isn't going down the toilet and secondly the 2017 regs aren't about greed, they're about financial viability for long term manufacturers who need to justify the significant investment required in their business.

If the "new" P2 category doesn't appeal to any well-healed privateer teams who still want absolute freedom of choice, then there are always alternatives which can cater for their needs.

Since I discovered the luxury of the "ignore list" I can't be sure who's statements you are referring to, but I have to say your post puts it in a nutshell for me!

Looking forward to the new P2, IMSA P and the resultant new P1s

Mariantic

[Giba]

The doom and gloom that everyone is forecasting about the P2 category reminds me of when the current P2 regs came out in 2010 and it was thought that it would be a field of only ORECA-Honda's. Obviously it instead turned into a great era for P2 racing so hopefully in 5 years time we will be able to look back and realise that it wasn't as bad as some people thought.

[Pontlieue]

I'm not at all a fan of the constructor limit in LMP2, but to be honest, I would be much less upset about it if LMP2 wasn't one of the last categories in racing that allowed open competion.

Single-seater series are mostly spec series, apart from F1, IndyCar and technically F3.