LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers - Page 59

Coach Ep · 10 Jul 2015, 18:01 (Ref:3557366)

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleman

Firstly, P2 isn't going down the toilet and secondly the 2017 regs aren't about greed, they're about financial viability for long term manufacturers who need to justify the significant investment required in their business.

If the "new" P2 category doesn't appeal to any well-healed privateer teams who still want absolute freedom of choice, then there are always alternatives which can cater for their needs.

I really doubt that the couple of teams going for their own developed chassis (Dome, SMP) and the one or two running older cars (Gibsons) are taking away so much revenue from the bigger constructors like Oreca, OAK (and Dallara would have fit that bill as well if they're were in the current P2 market) that their P2 projects are not financial viable enough, we're talking about 4 or 5 cars worldwide here, don't we?

The little 'garagists' would never have been a real commercial treat to the bigger constructors in the first place so why push 'm out? You guessed it right: greed.

Deleted · 10 Jul 2015, 18:13 (Ref:3557369)

Especially considering that the businesses of Oreca and Oak wouldn't have died out even if there actually had beenb some theoretical danger for them (which there wasn't). Oreca has so many campaigns going all over world, building cars and components for zillion categories and organizations, and Onroak is wildly international too. They would have been fine.

When eventualy the old open tops would have been banned and the old 03R+Pescarolo customers would have had to upgrade, Oreca and Oak would have got new orders for their coupes anyway.

Also you can already see the huge influx of orders Oak has made from 2014 to 2015, same would have happened to Oreca 05 too even without this garbage greediness, especially considering the performance of the 05 this year at Le Mans where it's been fully optimized

Rcz · 10 Jul 2015, 19:20 (Ref:3557387)

I hate the limits because I like the little guy building his own car to the rules and race.

Sport cars and really racing in general would die out if they had the 4 chassis limited in either the main or junior series back in the day, because many of those little companies would later become very important.

I understand the ACO sees the P2 platform in the way we see a PC car. But most little manufacturers can't build a P1 car. Many engine and chassis makers would first build a car in the small category then when they build a name for themselves then the would make cars for the premier class.

Pandamasque · 10 Jul 2015, 19:55 (Ref:3557397)

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleman

The conspiracy theorists on this post appear to be ignoring one absolutely key fact - LMP2 is a cost capped category.

No manufacturer can make it financially viable unless they can sell at least 8 to 10 units plus the associated spares & support package.

The Strakka Dome is no doubt cost capped, but I bet they've spent a few million already trying to develop it.........and nobody will ever buy another one!

Yet there were many manufacturers happy to compete for customers at their peril. You know.... like always used to be the case in customer car racing. Competition of constructors, I remember it used to be called. Now suddenly everyone needs to go home with a trophy. I think there's a line in one of IMSA's statement about applying BoP to all 4 chassis so that (quote) "chassis choice is immaterial".
And that's their top "prototype" class!

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleman

viability for long term manufacturers who need to justify the significant investment required in their business.

As other manufacturers lay off their employees and terminate ongoing P2 projects (and now P3 too).

It could only be about greed and nothing but greed.

And the worst thing is that this abomination of a class will take up grid slots (especially at Le Mans... a bleeding spec class at Le Mans, imagine that!!) and air time on the broadcast with the commentators finding themselves in need to sugar-coat the whole thing talking about "close racing" and yadda yadda.

ModelT · 10 Jul 2015, 21:44 (Ref:3557413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleman

I share a lot of your views, but as an older contributor I've come to realise that the halcyon days of Chapman,Cooper, etc etc building ingenious designs in lock-up garages has gone forever.

I think the use of exotic materials, and particularly the move to carbon fiber tubs and sophisticated aerodynamics, renders a "home brewed special" impossible. Throw hybrid technology and modern electronics into the mix and only a company with huge resources can produce a competitive, modern day racing car.

I would tend to disagree with you on this. No amount of regulations to force people into little boxes of thought in life, will stop those who think outside the envelope from emerging. It's the human spirit, thankfully

BTCC 318d · 11 Jul 2015, 10:14 (Ref:3557516)

No idea where the criticism of the p2 class at Le Mans is coming from. The last few years, the P2 battles have been great. I love seeing the am guys try to live with the pros, living the dream.
will the class suffer a huge death becuase of the change? i doubt it. However, it's the end of me being able to support a British team with a British chassis, the russians have the same issue etc.

now, the am guys either have a very short list of GTE cars they can use (far shorter than gt3), or an even shorter list of p2's. Veriety is what sets LM apart from everything else - and they're taking it away

Coach Ep · 11 Jul 2015, 13:37 (Ref:3557540)

GTE
Ferrari
Porsche
Aston Martin
Corvette
Viper
BMW
Ford in future?
possible others (McLaren??? Honda???)

vs.

P2
Oreca
Dallara
OAK
Riley/Multimatic

vs.

P3
Ginetta
OAK
Adess
Riley/Ave
TBA

But yes, a similar restriction in GTE-Am as in P2 + P3 in the near future wouldn't surprise me...

carbon_titanium · 11 Jul 2015, 13:48 (Ref:3557541)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

GTE
Ferrari
Porsche
Aston Martin
Corvette
Viper
BMW
Ford in future?
possible others (McLaren??? Honda???)

vs.

P2
Oreca
Dallara
OAK
Riley/Multimatic

vs.

P3
Ginetta
OAK
Adess
Riley/Ave
TBA

But yes, a similar restriction in GTE-Am as in P2 + P3 in the near future wouldn't surprise me...

forget to see any viper in future... so far in GTE we have:

ferrari with the incoming 488, ford with ford GT, corvette with the updated C7R, AMR with the updated vantage and nothing more!

About porsche, don't know if the 919 RSR will be evolved or there will be a GTE version of the 2017 918 "baby".

About BMW I expect to see in future an m6 gt3 turned in GTE using tons of waivers, as usual for them.

Very unlikely to me the presence of mclaren, bentley or honda

Honestly I don't give a shift about new lmp2 joke cars, just hope that in TUSC there will be new interesting cars from the lmp2 base

Dyson Mazda · 11 Jul 2015, 13:55 (Ref:3557545)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

GTE
Ferrari
Porsche
Aston Martin
Corvette
Viper
BMW
Ford in future?
possible others (McLaren??? Honda???)

vs.

P2
Oreca
Dallara
OAK
Riley/Multimatic

vs.

P3
Ginetta
OAK
Adess
Riley/Ave
TBA

But yes, a similar restriction in GTE-Am as in P2 + P3 in the near future wouldn't surprise me...

vs

P1 - Privateer
Oreca (Maybe?)

Rodger Davies · 11 Jul 2015, 14:32 (Ref:3557554)

Urgh, the final reality of this is horrible; the ACO has betrayed the history of sportscar racing in chasing a quick buck.

"Two month selection process"? Don't make me laugh; this was decided long ago via some candlelit dinners with numbers written on napkins.

Seeing genuine, willing and current constructors like BR, Ginetta and HPD being turned away for whatever stupid reason is utterly ridiculous. Don't give me " economic realities" rubbish, there are very real people that currently have jobs at those aforementioned companies that will no longer have a livelihood so that Hughes de Chaunac can sleep more comfortably at night.

In the same week as the UK's 'elite' appears to be embracing its lust to go back to an aristocratic society, seems the ACO have a similar desire, and this cake has a very bad taste.

Bob Baldwin · 11 Jul 2015, 17:33 (Ref:3557573)

As far as USA Sportscar connections go I get the Riley / Multimatic / UK connection , The Dallara in Indy connection . But can someone tell me the Oreca / USA Connection ? Is Oreaca operated independently in the USA ? or are they affiliated with another company here in the USA ?

Deleted · 11 Jul 2015, 18:04 (Ref:3557579)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

vs

P1 - Privateer
Oreca (Maybe?)

But that isn't through forced mandation like in P2 and P3.

And you're wrong anyway since Strakka is coming in, Kolles might stay in, and others like SARD might move up (and not necessarily with Oreca). In any case it should be Rebellion and Strakka minimum by 2017

HORNDAWG · 11 Jul 2015, 18:18 (Ref:3557584)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

As far as USA Sportscar connections go I get the Riley / Multimatic / UK connection , The Dallara in Indy connection . But can someone tell me the Oreca / USA Connection ? Is Oreaca operated independently in the USA ? or are they affiliated with another company here in the USA ?

Their own.

http://sportscar365.com/industry/ore...-in-charlotte/

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11159...-american-base

http://www.imsa.com/articles/oreca-e...-american-base

L.P.

Bob Baldwin · 11 Jul 2015, 20:14 (Ref:3557600)

HORNDAWG : Thanks for the 3 links

Does anyone know if they followed through on their wanting to do such ?

If so what are they currently doing ?

Reading between the lines of the links ,it appears that they Somewhat KNEW that they WOULD be getting one of the 4 MFG slots that were recently announced

Certainly hope they are successfull in their endeavors .sounds like they may take a HIT if the PC class goes away , but then again they also have many new potential customers in other areas of racing .

Deleted · 11 Jul 2015, 20:52 (Ref:3557608)

They were the ones that got ACO to sign these crappy regulations so of course they knew it.

And even if LMPC was axed today - heck even if LMP2 was - they would still have money pouring in from their other twenty million projects.

Pandamasque · 11 Jul 2015, 21:31 (Ref:3557614)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Reading between the lines of the links ,it appears that they Somewhat KNEW that they WOULD be getting one of the 4 MFG slots that were recently announced

Hughes de Chaunac talked to RLM basically a few days after the "proposal" leaked to the press back in Spring. When asked what Oreca would do next if they weren't selected, he said: "I can't imagine not being selected", or something very close to that. You could almost hear presenters' eyebrows move on the podcast.

ModelT · 12 Jul 2015, 01:46 (Ref:3557659)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Hughes de Chaunac talked to RLM basically a few days after the "proposal" leaked to the press back in Spring. When asked what Oreca would do next if they weren't selected, he said: "I can't imagine not being selected", or something very close to that. You could almost hear presenters' eyebrows move on the podcast.

I would think if you were to have asked Dallara the same question way back then, you would have got the same answer, even if their name was not even being mentioned.

If anyone believe this whole affair has been conducted in a fair and transparent manner, they probably also believe the US president is actually elected by the people.

nasdriv87 · 12 Jul 2015, 02:02 (Ref:3557660)

But, who is going to left in LMP2 now???

According EI maybe Strakka and Gibson will move to LMP1

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/gib...lmp1-a-letude/

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/dan...and-challenge/

Pontlieue · 12 Jul 2015, 08:52 (Ref:3557738)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nasdriv87

But, who is going to left in LMP2 now???

According EI maybe Strakka and Gibson will move to LMP1

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/gib...lmp1-a-letude/

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/dan...and-challenge/

Strakka's LMP1 project is already confirmed (see "Strakka LMP1 discussion" thread) and Gibson's interest in LMP1 is known as well, but they're still waiting for a customer. SARD or Greaves are the most likely customers for a Gibson LMP1.

Simmi · 12 Jul 2015, 11:02 (Ref:3557773)

It looks like SMP/BR Engineering might be looking at LMP1 too. They don't really have a lot of options.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...programme.html

MagVanisher · 12 Jul 2015, 11:31 (Ref:3557791)

All jumping to the LMP1 train, huh. Those bigwigs at ACO are truly magnificent people!

Rodger Davies · 12 Jul 2015, 11:43 (Ref:3557800)

The ELMS race on at the moment is superb, but I'm watching it thinking that the leader is a Gibson (banned), second is a BR (banned), third is an Oreca (allowed), fourth is an Oreca 03 (banned), fifth is a BR01 (banned), sixth is a Gibson (banned), seventh is a Morgan (banned), eight and ninth are Oreca 03s (banned).

And we're changing the rules in the interest of 'cost saving'? Don't make me laugh. This series could potentially implode when they force everyone to buy a new car from Oak or Oreca over a 12 month period or go away. Because let's be honest, Dallara and Riley are in this to sell cars to US manufacturers.

Superb diveristy, a great mix of open and closed, very different shapes. Shame to see it being culled so we can have a near spec field in future.

Mystery · 12 Jul 2015, 11:43 (Ref:3557801)

I would genuinely not be too displeased to see Next-gen P2 really struggle for entries while LMP1-L hopefully thrives. A bit of variety in P3 would be excellent too.

spider · 12 Jul 2015, 17:26 (Ref:3557901)

This is the reality of motorsport I'm afraid - I think we all know how this has come about - but there's little point in getting annoyed by it, despite a whole bunch of illogical sporting reasons on how this could possibly help LMP2 going forward. The one, written by someone on here many pages back was so bloody obvious-a-flaw to this plan, it will kill the class - one chassis will be the best of the bunch of four, so why on earth would people buy the three other types given such limited tech rules? They won't.

So - sadly, as this is no different from what's going in single seaters, and in fact most motorsport series, it's really not worth getting too angry over something we can't control...just got to hope that the teams / drivers see this as nonsense and vote with their feet.

Dallara-only LMP2/3 by 2020 anyone?

Pandamasque · 12 Jul 2015, 19:23 (Ref:3557953)

Are you suggesting that we should stop caring about the sport we love?

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