LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[chernaudi]

The Gibson/Zytek LMP2 engine has been finalized as a 4.2 liter V8. Whether it's a clean sheet of paper design or will owe much to the old Zytek "Z" engine family isn't clear.

[Jam3s]

I believe there's the requirement to go Direct Injection which will at least mean an overheal of heads (and thus everything else), they may decide to start clean. Excited for this engine, P2's with an extra 100hp is tasty.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Jam3s

I believe there's the requirement to go Direct Injection which will at least mean an overheal of heads (and thus everything else), they may decide to start clean. Excited for this engine, P2's with an extra 100hp is tasty.

They changed that requirement at the end to be either direct or port injection. Not saying that was for Gibson, but it could have been.

[Deleted]

S365 writes of increases to cost caps sums for next year. 18500 euros in open tops and 13500 in coupes.

Isn't it great how they are always reasoning changes of the future with cheaper budget requirements, incl with the new spec regs, yet slowly still widening the spectrum of allowed maximum sums.

[tux]

Yeah Chiana, we have to deal with Spec engines for cost reasons (despite no teams complaining) and they are increasing the cost cap anyway.

[knighty]

Sorry I need to say this and get it off my chest....

I have to say this new LMP2 engine has tragedy written all over it already, this is basically very similar as the last LMP1-Zytek engine, and I seem to remember it was a mess of a thing........a 600hp V8 normally aspirated LMP engine is a very highly strung unit, and will shake the chassis to pieces, even if the engine lasts, the gearboxes and chassis + electronics will be vibrated to hell and back......hence I dont believe it will be reliable, I can foresee many unhappy LMP2 runners with either expired engines or constant retirements due to excessive chassis vibrations.

If Zytek are planning on making the engine reliable and last the distance and re-build intervals, then they will need to start from a clean piece of paper and design a robust engine and not a spindly light weight thing that lasts as long as a mayfly.......I see trouble ahead in LMP2, and it will just drive costs higher and higher

ahhhh.... that feels better, have said it now B-)

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by knighty

Sorry I need to say this and get it off my chest....

I have to say this new LMP2 engine has tragedy written all over it already, this is basically very similar as the last LMP1-Zytek engine, and I seem to remember it was a mess of a thing........a 600hp V8 normally aspirated LMP engine is a very highly strung unit, and will shake the chassis to pieces, even if the engine lasts, the gearboxes and chassis + electronics will be vibrated to hell and back......hence I dont believe it will be reliable, I can foresee many unhappy LMP2 runners with either expired engines or constant retirements due to excessive chassis vibrations.

If Zytek are planning on making the engine reliable and last the distance and re-build intervals, then they will need to start from a clean piece of paper and design a robust engine and not a spindly light weight thing that lasts as long as a mayfly.......I see trouble ahead in LMP2, and it will just drive costs higher and higher

ahhhh.... that feels better, have said it now B-)

I'm guessing the current, Nissan-based LMP2 V8 is a fairly large lump, being a stock block. And it fits current LMP2 chassis, and these are within the weight limit. So Gibson should have some scope to build something fairly robust for the new regs, particularly since they won't have to worry about any competition.

Is 140bhp/litre really that highly strung these days? I suppose running flat out for 6 (or 24) hours works you through your life cycle pretty quickly...

[knighty]

yes the Nissan is a stock block VK based engine with 4.5 litres, but its only pushing 450bhp, so they say........taking it to 600hp is a different situation, and I dont believe it would work.......I heard the LMP2 engine was going to be a bespoke un-named race engine, so kind of rules out any base engine like the Nissan, I think this is the whole problem with LMP2 whereby for the past 10 years, the manufacturers have been hiding there, and the ACO have only just realized it, so now the are chasing everyone out of the bush who can actually afford LMP1 in the new privateer class.......personally I think its a good move as LMP1 needs some more plucky privateers

[joeb]

Maybe the new LMP2 engine will be a dud, but good thing IMSA will have a whole slew of engines that work and could be plucked in!

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes the Nissan is a stock block VK based engine with 4.5 litres, but its only pushing 450bhp, so they say........taking it to 600hp is a different situation, and I dont believe it would work.......I heard the LMP2 engine was going to be a bespoke un-named race engine, so kind of rules out any base engine like the Nissan, I think this is the whole problem with LMP2 whereby for the past 10 years, the manufacturers have been hiding there, and the ACO have only just realized it, so now the are chasing everyone out of the bush who can actually afford LMP1 in the new privateer class.......personally I think its a good move as LMP1 needs some more plucky privateers

I don't think anybody would begrudge the ACO for trying to get more privateers in LMP1, but "gently" pushing them out of LMP2 doesn't address the increased cost to run in the top class. I don't think these manufacturers who have hidden in LMP2 until now will be quite so keen to help their customers make up the shortfall.

As for the engine I hope Gibson do leave plenty of headroom for reliability's sake. But the potential for vibration problems worries me, especially if the new block ends up smaller than the current VK45 (which I think would struggle with a 33% increase in output for the same duty cycles). But if they stroke it out too much will they run the risk of installation issues?

Originally Posted by joeb

Maybe the new LMP2 engine will be a dud, but good thing IMSA will have a whole slew of engines that work and could be plucked in!

But they won't be bespoke un-branded units, which goes against what the ACO are trying to do with LMP2...

[chernaudi]

The Gibson/Zytek V8 is intended to be an "off the shelf" customer unit that a team themselves or with some sort of tie-in can put their name on the valve covers aside from the stock Gibson Technologies branding.

And as far as having a 550-600bhp 4.2 liter flat crank V8 last the whole 24 hours without major problems, right now, you might as well throw darts at a dart board at random. Porsche, HPD and Toyota had 3.4 flat crank V8s pumping out over 500bhp (about 600 for Toyota) that lasted the 24 hours without issue, and usually put their cars solidly in the top 10 overall. But the Toyota was in an LMP1 car in large part built around that engine. The Porsche V8 was equally as integrated into the RS Spyder's chassis, and the HPD V8 was fitted into heavily modified Courage/Oreca LC70-series chassis that were adapted for it (or based heavily on the LC70 in the case of the post 2011 HPD LMP1 cars).

For the non-auto manufacturer aligned makers, it's more bleak, as Zytek (now Gibson) and Judd haven't had a ton of success in the old LMP2 or even LMP675 eras with having their engines, or the cars that they powered, last the LM24 without serious issues.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

But they won't be bespoke un-branded units, which goes against what the ACO are trying to do with LMP2...

Yes, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but what I meant was if the un-branded unit fails there are backup options that chassis manufacturers probably will already be able to accommodate. All this talk about potential shortcomings of an engine that doesn't exist is hypothetical to say the least. Gibson could surprise us and come up with a stellar design.

[Coach Ep]

Question: is the new spec engine by Gibson also cost-capped?

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by joeb

Yes, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but what I meant was if the un-branded unit fails there are backup options that chassis manufacturers probably will already be able to accommodate.

Don't worry, I got that; I just couldn't pass up the chance to continue the japes.

But as cherunaudi has pointed out, the high-power V8s that have lasted the distance have all been integrated with their chassis to the nth degree. They also all had factory dollar behind them to make sure everything was bang-on. I want Gibson to produce an absolute peach of an engine as well, but the one thing they cannot work around is the lack of resources compared to what manufacturers have available.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Question: is the new spec engine by Gibson also cost-capped?

Yes it is

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And as far as having a 550-600bhp 4.2 liter flat crank V8 last the whole 24 hours without major problems, right now, you might as well throw darts at a dart board at random.

Maybe it will be a silky-smooth, cross plane crank design.
OK, it won't, but imagine how much better that would sound.

[PorscheFanNo1]

I'll take flat-plane cranks over cross-plane every day of the week! Well actually I'd rather have 50/50 of both or so, but if I had to choose, flat-plane!!

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I'll take flat-plane cranks over cross-plane every day of the week! Well actually I'd rather have 50/50 of both or so, but if I had to choose, flat-plane!!

Agreed on the 50/50 split. Unfortunately, variety is no longer encouraged...

[Roninho]

Ok since i had the flu during xmas and had 2 slow recovery days i spend some time summarizing which engines have been used in LMP2 over the past decade (since 2004, when the move was made from LMP 675 to LMP2).
I looked at all entries in LMP2 at Le Mans and the LMS serie. I also looked at the ALMS seasons, but from every season only 2 events (Petit le mans and Sebring). Reason was that wiki didnt list the lmp2 entries clear at the championship season pages and i didnt want to look at all races looking for entries.

Name is the name from wiki as the entry for the engine. Engine are the engine details as provided by wiki, and the years are the years the engine was listed in the results.

There is some overlap in the engines since some were re-badged. For example Judd is listed with a Judd HK, which is also listed under BMW. The AER P07 is listed as AER, MG and Ford.

If i missed anyone please add to the list.

Name	Engine	LMS active years	ALMS active yrs
AER	AER P07 2.0L Turbo I4	2005-2010	2005-2006,2009
Alfa Romeo	Alfa Romeo 3.0L V6	2004-2005	-
BMW	Judd-BMW HK 3.6L V8	2011-2012	2011
Ford	Millington 2.0L Turbo I4	-	2004
Ford	Ford RY EcoBoost 3.2 L Turbo V6	-	2012
Ford	Ford Ecoboost 3.5 L V6 Turbo	-	2014-2015
Ford	AER 2.0L Turbo I4	2005	-
Ford	Mecachrome 3.4L V8	2006	-
Honda	HPD AL7R 3.4L V8	2010	2007-2010
Honda	HPD HR28TT 2.8L Turbo V6	2011	2011-2015
JPX	JPX (mader) 3.4L V6	2004-2005	-
Judd	Judd KV675 3.4L V8	-	2004
Judd	Judd XV675 3.4L V8	2004-2007, 2009	2005-2007
Judd	Judd DB 3.4L V8	2008-2010	2010
Judd	Judd HK 3.6L V8	2013-2015	2012-2015
Lotus	Judd 3.6 L V8	-	2012
Mazda	Mazda R20B 2.0L 3-R	-	2005-2010
Mazda	Mazda MZR-R 2.0L Turbo I4	2008-2009	-
Mazda	2.2 L SKYACTIV-D*(SH-VPTS)*I4*Turbo*D	-	2014-2015
Mazda	Élan 1.9 LI4 Turbo	2014-2015	-
Mecachrome	Mecachrome 3.4L V8	2005	-
MG	AER XP20 2.0L Turbo I4	2004-2005	2004
MG	AER VQL 3.0L V6	-	2004
Nicholson McLaren	Nicholson McLaren 3.3L V8	2005, 2009	2005
Nissan	AER VQL 3.0L V6	2004	2004-2005
Nissan	Nissan 4.0L V8	-	2010
Nissan	Nissan VK45DE 4.5L V8	2011-2015	2011-2014
Peugeot	Peugeot 3.4L V6	2004	-
Porsche	Porsche MR6 3.4L V8	2008-2009	2006-2010
Zytek	Zytek ZG348 3.4L V8	2006-2010	2006-2008

So some questions:

• JPX engine: i see it listed with a reference to Mader, but also seen mentions Willman and Pilbeam. Anybody got some info on this engine?
• Alfa Romeo: Anyone got some info on this engine?
• Peugeot: Is this the AER or is it a different engine?
• There was some discussion on this forum on a IES Nissan engine. I could not find it as an entry, did i miss it, is it under a different name in the list, or did it never participate?
• I would have thought that Mugen participated at Le Mans, but i guess it was only in LMP1? Because i couldnt find a reference to them.

[Coach Ep]

When was Ford's Ecoboost used in a P2? 2017 perhaps?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

When was Ford's Ecoboost used in a P2? 2017 perhaps?

was it in Ian Dawson's car? I remember some team with an "unauthorized" effort or something at the same time the dP motors came out.

[Coach Ep]

That was 2010ish, Roninho's table says 2014-2015 (in its latest version) so I'm thinking DP, not P2. If so, Chevy (and probably others as well) should also be on that list (?)

(don't wanna open the DP vs. P2 can of worms again but just pointing it out...)

[Roninho]

Sorry i made a mistake, my full list included a part of the lmp 675 period and the uscc period. I did not post the lmp 675 engines, but forgot to remove the 2014-2015 engines under alms (these were raced in the "p" class). I will update the list later but the ford ecoboost and mazda skyactiv were not raced as p2 afaik.

[Roninho]

Updated the table, in red are engines that were used in USCC in 14-15 in the "P'' class in a car that did not have the ''DP'' name in it (which i assume is therefor under the lmp2 rulings). If not correct please let me know.

Name	Engine	LMS active years	ALMS active yrs
AER	AER P07 2.0L Turbo I4	2005-2010	2005-2006,2009
Alfa Romeo	Alfa Romeo 3.0L V6	2004-2005	-
BMW	Judd-BMW HK 3.6L V8	2011-2012	2011
Ford	Millington 2.0L Turbo I4	-	2004
Ford	Ford RY EcoBoost 3.2 L Turbo V6	-	2012
Ford	Ford Ecoboost 3.5 L V6 Turbo	-	2014-2015
Ford	AER 2.0L Turbo I4	2005	-
Ford	Mecachrome 3.4L V8	2006	-
Honda	HPD AL7R 3.4L V8	2010	2007-2010
Honda	HPD HR28TT 2.8L Turbo V6	2011	2011-2015
JPX	JPX (mader) 3.4L V6	2004-2005	-
Judd	Judd KV675 3.4L V8	-	2004
Judd	Judd XV675 3.4L V8	2004-2007, 2009	2005-2007
Judd	Judd DB 3.4L V8	2008-2010	2010
Judd	Judd HK 3.6L V8	2013-2015	2012-2015
Lotus	Judd 3.6 L V8	-	2012
Mazda	Mazda R20B 2.0L 3-R	-	2005-2010
Mazda	Mazda MZR-R 2.0L Turbo I4	2008-2009	-
Mazda	2.2 L SKYACTIV-D*(SH-VPTS)*I4*Turbo*D	-	2014-2015
Mazda	Élan 1.9 LI4 Turbo	2014-2015	-
Mecachrome	Mecachrome 3.4L V8	2005	-
MG	AER XP20 2.0L Turbo I4	2004-2005	2004
MG	AER VQL 3.0L V6	-	2004
Nicholson McLaren	Nicholson McLaren 3.3L V8	2005, 2009	2005
Nissan	AER VQL 3.0L V6	2004	2004-2005
Nissan	Nissan 4.0L V8	-	2010
Nissan	Nissan VK45DE 4.5L V8	2011-2015	2011-2014
Peugeot	Peugeot 3.4L V6	2004	-
Porsche	Porsche MR6 3.4L V8	2008-2009	2006-2010
Zytek	Zytek ZG348 3.4L V8	2006-2010	2006-2008

Anybody got some info on the Alfa, Peugeot, JPX, IES and Mugen engines i referred in my previous post to?

[wdave0]

The 3.5 ecoboost was in Ganassi's Riley DP, although "P" class, not P2. The Mazda Diesel was in a genuine, if vintage Lola/Multimatic P2.