The booing of Vettel & is Vettel a great?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I agree.
Although I will add, that maybe Vettel's unpopularity is because many people don't quite see Vettel as the best there is, and his irritating finger-boy act is seen as him telling everyone he's the best, whereas the reality is he is a top driver lucky enough to have the best car by far these last few years.

I think that may play a part, but:

a) Those people don't understand F1 yet if they don't realise the importance of your car.

b) I used to be sceptical about Vettel's outright ability, but now I'd have trouble ranking him lower than Hamilton and Alonso. At Monza he was magical. He regularly trounces Mark Webber. There's not much of a case to be made for him not being one of the best.

[Born Racer]

Also, what domination? As Christian Horner has pointed out on several occasions, they don't always win by big margins and actually have a tight battle quite often. It's just it's a battle that Seb and Red Bull win..

Re: the booing, it's fair enough we're talking about this now, but I don't think it seemed as bad at Monza as it might have been or at other circuits. That's what came through on the telly for me, anyway. Admittedly probably not a good barometer.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunder

(Obviously isnt an issue against Webber)

Why does his KERS and DRSalways fail more then Sebs then?

I dont believe anyone can be that unlucky?

Seb has had his fair share of KERS and DRS issues also. I think its how a driver handles an issue. Vettel won at Monza, dispite flat spotting a tyre which meant he had to stop earlier than planned, plus also a gearbox issue. To be fair, Mark had an endplate come off (which wasn't that bad that it needed changing) and a gearbox issue also, but one driver handled it enough to win, the other didn't.

Newy always designs his cars with KERS as an after thought, but the battery is located in the same place, the only difference I can see (and i'm not sure if its why Mark has problems) is the difference in size between Mark and Seb. Now, if that is the issue, then that is hardly Vettels fault.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

b) I used to be sceptical about Vettel's outright ability, but now I'd have trouble ranking him lower than Hamilton and Alonso. At Monza he was magical. He regularly trounces Mark Webber. There's not much of a case to be made for him not being one of the best.

There was an interview with Alonso earlier on in the season about Vettel, and I can't remember exactly what Alonso said, but basically it was....

"there comes a point when we have to realise that it can't just be the car"

[chunder]

I guess I come from an area of motorsport where entertainment is encouraged, so a bit of boo and hiss when the villain and cheer when the hero win is all part and parcel.

Some of the villains deserve it, some don't. And some get involved. I recall one guy who was dominating F1 stock car racing for years, we used to boo him routinely, then on a parade lap he came past us, we booed, he hid behind his roof spoiler and gave us all the finger with a huge smile on his face, and we all cheered! Was fantastic. Or he would hold his finger up to his mouth etc etc. He knoew why we booed and cared not a jot!

I don't have a problem with it, most sportsmen would not take much notice, and an elite one like VEttel certainly wouldn't.

It is only because of domination, and some people don't like that or appreciate it. I can't for one minute think anyone actually dislikes or hates Seb, he is utterly charming and a perfect gent.

This is just a bit of panto and should be treated as such. As I said before it would be brilliant if Seb played up to it a bit, but I doubt he would be allowed!

[bella]

i have to agree with chunder and bauble, in that booing isn't really that much of a drama. bauble's point that it's the opposite to cheering and we wouldn't dream of suggesting people should stop doing that is a very good one. and chunder is totally right in that it's just part of the pantomime that is modern sports. it'd be nice if people didn't feel the need to boo during the interviews on the podium, but that's the danger of having interviews out in front of the fans on the podium i guess.

on the other hand, if it was words then i think i'd have a different view. calling someone names isn't really on. if you hate another human being that much then it's time to put the flag down and think about your life and your choices.

it is very un-"f1(tm)" though. i'm surprised they haven't started to sell tickets for the track invasion yet

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunder

I wouldn't really call Mansell Alonso or Hamilton nearly men!

That is harsh in the extreme! Mansell made winning look insanely easy in 91 and 92, but then he had a car advantage didn't he? Sound familiar!

As for Alonso, apart from Renault he has rarely been in the best car, a good one maybe but rarely the best.

And Lewis, well he is perhaps a true racer, maybe hampered by being with McLaren at a bad time, and his failings make him human to fans

What I meant by 'nearly men' is that they fell short of what people believe they could have achieved. Mansell, Hamilton and Alonso may have very done well over a couple of years... but for a variety of reasons they were eclipsed by somebody else who just managed to do a better job of it the rest of the time.

Going back to Alonso for a moment. He may not be in the best car... but as Michael Schumacher pointed out over the weekend, that's as much his fault as Ferrari's. He is paid enough... and has the status to be able to turn that team on its head to develop something better. When Schumacher joined Ferrari, they were in far more of a shambles than they are today... yet he oversaw a root and branch transformation that made them unbeatable. Vettel may not have rebuilt RBR around him, but by all accounts he has a similar work ethic to Schumacher. The guy is day and night in Milton Keynes poring over detail to methodically improve the team and car performance... and that does make a difference on Sunday. Alonso appears to be more interested in mischief making and politicking than grafting.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

i have to agree with chunder and bauble, in that booing isn't really that much of a drama. bauble's point that it's the opposite to cheering and we wouldn't dream of suggesting people should stop doing that is a very good one. and chunder is totally right in that it's just part of the pantomime that is modern sports.

Modern sport ? Really ? I guess that explains the crescendo of booing at Olympic Park last year when Usain Bolt yet again dominated the men's 100m and performed his victory antics. Or maybe the people there were of a higher intelligence to understand they were witnessing greatness in the flesh and appreciated the moment.

Traditionally people booed and jeered at a bad performance. If Vettel is singled out to be booed after every race for the foreseeable future because people dislike him [though they struggle to explain why] then that's a pretty nasty reflection on these individuals.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Traditionally people booed and jeered at a bad performance. If Vettel is singled out to be booed after every race for the foreseeable future because people dislike him [though they struggle to explain why] then that's a pretty nasty reflection on these individuals.

Sorry but this is not entirely accurate! Crowd booing and abuse of opponents has been with us since the ancient Olympics and Roman chariot racing. Its a reflection of the tribalism that exists in almost all competitive sport. In the nineteenth century a very small number of sports (cricket, rugby, amateur athletics) adopted a different 'gentlemanly' sporting ethos partly as a way of regulating crowd behaviour and keeping out what were seen as the 'rougher' elements. But the world has moved on...

No one has an obligation to like Vettel just because he can drive a car half-decently. I never liked Senna - anyone who would deliberately drive his car at someone else to win a championship is not someone I want my kids to look up to.

[bella]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Sorry but this is not entirely accurate! Crowd booing and abuse of opponents has been with us since the ancient Olympics and Roman chariot racing. Its a reflection of the tribalism that exists in almost all competitive sport. In the nineteenth century a very small number of sports (cricket, rugby, amateur athletics) adopted a different 'gentlemanly' sporting ethos partly as a way of regulating crowd behaviour and keeping out what were seen as the 'rougher' elements. But the world has moved on...

quite. makes you wonder if humans developed clapping as a way of being louder than the boo and not risking a loss of voice

i don't know what people expect really - a big crowd of people to suddenly sit down cross-legged on the rug ready for storytime? if you bring the competitors to the crowd you will get mixed reactions. our sport really has no home ground, unlike football. monza is about as close as it gets. and even there you have plenty of competitors who are the opposition for the home team.

perhaps it's personal risk. motogp riders for example visually put a lot more on the line. you can see and appreciate an exceptional ride from a guy on a bike easily, and i think the reception a race winner gets at most circuits reflects that. a good drive in f1 is something entirely more subtle.

[chunder]

Entirely true Bella and love him or loath him this is why I started to like Stoner when he got booed at Donington a few years back, he wasn't dominating at all that year maybe in 2007, he hadn't done that season, he just happened to beat their favourite Rossi.

Plus he remembered that he went there to start his career in the early days, and competed in our 125 series, so was flabbergasted. I tend to step back a bit now with some of the things he has done in recent years, I do think he has a bit of a serious attitude, but that moment surprised me. And it clearly did him.

Vettel is not doing anything extraordinary, so comparing him to Usain is a staggeringly misleading representation! Usain trained for 4 years for that 9.7 second moment, Seb has weeks, month, and hours to prepare for his sport and 19 chances every year to perform, a totally different ideal, and one reason why F1 drivers (rightly or wrongly) are not held in as high regard as elite athletes like Michael Johnson, Bolt or Steve Redgrave, and rightly so in my eyes.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by chunder

Vettel is not doing anything extraordinary...

Then we have to find a new term for what he's doing.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Then we have to find a new term for what he's doing.

Fantastic, grandiose, unthinkable...

I'm not a Vettel fan, and probably never will be. He's burned his bridges with his immature, arrogant past and although his attitude may have improved SLIGHTLY with age I still think he's an idiotic little punk. Nevertheless, I respect his driving skill and booing him is just low. And saying that he's not doing the extraordinary is ridiculous...

[bella]

immature, arrogant past? idiotic little punk?

mmm... i think you might have a lot to learn about workplace dynamics and what happens to people when they grow up and mature in a high pressured, adult environment.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by bella

immature, arrogant past? idiotic little punk?

mmm... i think you might have a lot to learn about workplace dynamics and what happens to people when they grow up and mature in a high pressured, adult environment.

Oh, I don't know - maybe a kid barely past 20, now a multi-millionaire, with the whole world at his fingertips - maybe that power and fame got to his head? Of course, I wouldn't know... how could I, given my age?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunder

Usain trained for 4 years for that 9.7 second moment, Seb has weeks, month, and hours to prepare for his sport and 19 chances every year to perform,

You make it sound like Bolt (or any other athlete) doesn't do anything else for 4 years! They do, there are plenty of other meetings they compete in, so you could say he has hundreds of chances to perform.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Oh, I don't know - maybe a kid barely past 20, now a multi-millionaire, with the whole world at his fingertips - maybe that power and fame got to his head? Of course, I wouldn't know... how could I, given my age?

point missed.

when someone appears in motorsport age 15 or 16, they immediately have a couple of blokes per car working FOR them. they have to learn man management skills that most people don't get the hang of till they're in their late 20s or early 30s. especially when they're part of a f1 young driver scheme, they need to turn up in exactly the right frame of mind at exactly the right time. they can't just turn up in a strop. sometimes they're making media appearances, and representing a brand. at sixteen years old.

would you honestly be able to step into a f1 drive and be the perfect sportsman and man manager in your late teens? well, sebastian vettel came pretty damn close to it. if you're not going to forgive him for losing his temper once or twice when he'd invested himself entirely in a race then that's just plain daft.

i (like quite a few other people on tenths) know people who worked with him when he was 18 at the oldest and they thought he was a great guy, and a great person to work with. he always gets the most from the guys he works with. frankly, i don't know many people who can do that in any walk of life, let alone motorsport and in their early 20s.

it's nothing to do with fame or power getting to his head. when you're an elite sportsperson you really commit everything you have mentally and physically into a race. you mean, he got out of the car fired up on adrenaline and made a few wrong judgements? have you *seen* some of the crap that gp2 and gp3 drivers are pedalling on twitter this season??

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Then we have to find a new term for what he's doing.

I don't think he's extraordinary either. He is a very, very good racing driver who has spent his young life honing his skills to get where he is now, aided by what is currently the best team by some margin and the best car by a bigger one. For once I don't seek to 'downgrade' him, but extraordinary - no. There are a lot of 'ordinary' human beings around in this world who are, in reality, 'extraordinary'.

Having said that, I'm not with Beetle on this one either....

Hell, I make no secret of the fact of my shallow reasons for not particularly liking the guy, in the same way as I didn't care for Schumacher. I still see these more recent 'greats' as pale shadows of the great drivers who went before them. But I'm opinionated like everyone else who's prepared to admit it - I can't have my motor racing idol without taking flak from those for whom his dark side overwhelmed his utter genius. That's life, I guess. It doesn't stop a smile spreading across my face when Vettel's car has one of it's all too rare mechanical problems, but I wouldn't stoop so low as to boo him. The fact is that he's the best around at the moment and is likely to be for some time to come.

[bella]

you know what people should do instead of boo? be completely silent. that's WAY more creepy and a far bigger mindfudge than booing someone

[Aysedasi]

Yes, I think it really would throw you to stand there waving and be greeted with stony silence!

[bella]

i wonder what tens of thousands of people simultaneously shaking their heads and tutting would look like?

[Aysedasi]

Somewhat pythonesque......?

All dressed as Mr. Gumby would be even better.......

[bella]

all together now, he's not the messiah...

[Paradise City]

I don't like Vettel at all, it's mainly his off track comportment but his sportsmanship in defeat is off too. Booing and cheering, heroes and villains has been part of the spectator equation since chariot racing.

It's rude but that's spectators for you, particularly the tifosi.

A sport packed with dumb gimmicks like DRS to maximise the appeal to the hoi polloi is also going to give encouragement to the punch and judy element. If you pander to the mob, you can't complain when you get mob behaviour.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

point missed.

when someone appears in motorsport age 15 or 16, they immediately have a couple of blokes per car working FOR them. they have to learn man management skills that most people don't get the hang of till they're in their late 20s or early 30s. especially when they're part of a f1 young driver scheme, they need to turn up in exactly the right frame of mind at exactly the right time. they can't just turn up in a strop. sometimes they're making media appearances, and representing a brand. at sixteen years old.

would you honestly be able to step into a f1 drive and be the perfect sportsman and man manager in your late teens? well, sebastian vettel came pretty damn close to it. if you're not going to forgive him for losing his temper once or twice when he'd invested himself entirely in a race then that's just plain daft.

i (like quite a few other people on tenths) know people who worked with him when he was 18 at the oldest and they thought he was a great guy, and a great person to work with. he always gets the most from the guys he works with. frankly, i don't know many people who can do that in any walk of life, let alone motorsport and in their early 20s.

it's nothing to do with fame or power getting to his head. when you're an elite sportsperson you really commit everything you have mentally and physically into a race. you mean, he got out of the car fired up on adrenaline and made a few wrong judgements? have you *seen* some of the crap that gp2 and gp3 drivers are pedalling on twitter this season??

Wow Bella! Great post!