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Old 9 Mar 2016, 14:46 (Ref:3621567)   #61
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Off topic but adding to the Gene Haas comments I think the average European fan under estimates how hard it is to drive and succeed in NASCAR, ask Montoya what it was like. Lapping at those speeds in the packs that they do with all the problems of disturbed air etc must take a huge amount of nerve and many brave pills if you ask me. Doing sub 15 second laps at Bristol for instance all race long is just mind boggling.
I did 8 laps driving a former Camping World Series car at Rockingham (Corby, not Carolina!) a couple of years ago. Even rev limited I realised the moment I gunned it out of the pits that there's a lot more to hustling them quickly than meets the eye.

It definitely isn't as simple as 'turn left', I can assure you of that - they don't half move around when you put the power down, and not always where you might expect!

Still, I got a couple of laps in under a minute. Not bad when you consider the track record is 24.719 seconds
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Old 9 Mar 2016, 22:35 (Ref:3621713)   #62
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I did 8 laps driving a former Camping World Series car at Rockingham (Corby, not Carolina!) a couple of years ago. Even rev limited I realised the moment I gunned it out of the pits that there's a lot more to hustling them quickly than meets the eye.

It definitely isn't as simple as 'turn left', I can assure you of that - they don't half move around when you put the power down, and not always where you might expect!

Still, I got a couple of laps in under a minute. Not bad when you consider the track record is 24.719 seconds
Glad you experienced one, I think they move around so much because the aero is pretty well non existent, and the buffeting is considerable in a pack situation.

The vision of the track ahead is also pathetic on a banked corner, every corner has a different camber, there are 3 adjacent racing lines, all the corners are taken flat out with the car floating on the limit with no run off room, the walls are hard and the traffic full on.

Easy really!
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Old 10 Mar 2016, 10:01 (Ref:3621808)   #63
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old man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridold man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridold man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think that "ordinary mortals" have really little concept of the skill levels at the top of any class and speaking personally, having the ability to judge the value in lap time of, say, aero changes that find a few tents through certain corners is something I cant't get my head round.

Balance is what it is all about I am told, "it just comes" say drivers who started racing just out of potty training. We get blasť when comparing times to 3 decimal places, we point out that a driver is way off pace if he is more than half a second off target, try measuring that on the stopwatch on your phone!

When I got down to an 11+ at Croft in my Mallock I was chuffed, Geoff Friswell then did an 8! 😟
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Old 10 Mar 2016, 13:21 (Ref:3621851)   #64
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Yes, but he wasn't called Frizz the Whizz for nothing...
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:03 (Ref:3690201)   #65
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Bringing back an old thread as, with the "off season" approaching we need something to talk about I am tempted again by the thought that the finance required for a driver to get a seat in F1 is keeping some of the best drivers out of F1.

Recent statements by DTM drivers that the fully professional nature of that series is preferable to the free market of F1 prompt the thought. The DTM is arguably the best series outside F1, certainly the best touring car series and on a much smaller scale the BTCC is certainly the biggest and best UK series but a championship contender who lost out in the last race has just walked away. It strikes me that this may be because, as he is known to have access to a big budget, the teams expect him to pay that, no recognition of achievement.

Does the same apply in F1 to say Palmer who is known to have access to big money and so will be paying the same this year as last? Granted he did not give the championship scorer any problems this year but do the pay drivers ever progress or are they always expected to pay the same?

The dream of backers that help a driver through the lower ranks is that when they get to F1 their talent will will show and budget requirements decrease, is this ever likely to be the case or is it that once they are seen to have budget it will always be required?
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:05 (Ref:3690202)   #66
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Just because you bring a budget, it doesn't mean that you don't get paid.

And, arguably, you are in a stronger situation as you bring the whole package - driving ability and sponsorship.

I realise the driving ability bit is often questioned..
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:14 (Ref:3690205)   #67
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:16 (Ref:3690206)   #68
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Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
When you drill down into it there are very few drivers who don't bring something in sponsorship or funding, multiple world champions included.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:08 (Ref:3690215)   #69
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When you drill down into it there are very few drivers who don't bring something in sponsorship or funding, multiple world champions included.
Yeah, I agree. I started writing a longer response, but eventually came to the same conclusion. Just for example, I'm sure that Alonso brought sponsorship when he joined Minardi.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:19 (Ref:3690221)   #70
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Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
If we knew the terms then this may illustrate my point, obviously all drivers start out paying but in the hope that as time goes by their ability shows and the paying hopefully becomes secondary to ability. This may be the case with Perez but I fear that many teams in F1 and other top series take the view that drivers will always pay and the more they are seen to be able to do so, the more they will be expected to do so.

I agree that just because a driver pays his way does not mean he has no ability, I just think we may lose some of the best because teams have lost the will to vigorously seek team sponsors.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:56 (Ref:3690227)   #71
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If we knew the terms then this may illustrate my point, obviously all drivers start out paying but in the hope that as time goes by their ability shows and the paying hopefully becomes secondary to ability. This may be the case with Perez but I fear that many teams in F1 and other top series take the view that drivers will always pay and the more they are seen to be able to do so, the more they will be expected to do so.

I agree that just because a driver pays his way does not mean he has no ability, I just think we may lose some of the best because teams have lost the will to vigorously seek team sponsors.
i think the best way to view it is that someone, somewhere has to pay for someone to race. it's just a matter of exactly who that someone is, and how committed they are to a drivers talent and ability to deliver.

it can be a dad (see: stroll, palmer), it can be a team (see: vandoorne), it can be a manufacturer (see: ocon, wehrlein). if a f1 team is 100% committed to a driver they will ensure they create the opportunity for him, whoever they have to throw under the bus on the way. if sauber came across a heroic, biblical talent you bet they'd find a way of putting him in a f1 car (and a watertight contract ) somehow.

anyone can open a door and be presented with an opportunity. some drivers are offered the same opportunity for a smaller contribution than others. the guys who can afford it will be offered a higher price. it's as simple as that. often the guy who can afford it will be indirectly subsidising someone who can't.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 16:09 (Ref:3690245)   #72
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And you also have to factor in drivers such as Michael Schumacher whose retainer (around the $25 million mark) at Ferrari was paid by Philip Morris (Marlboro), and Alonso whose retainer has been paid by Honda whilst he has been back at McLaren.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 16:44 (Ref:3690254)   #73
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but thats not really old man's point though is it?

if i am understanding his post correctly:

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Recent statements by DTM drivers that the fully professional nature of that series is preferable to the free market of F1 prompt the thought. The DTM is arguably the best series outside F1, certainly the best touring car series and on a much smaller scale the BTCC is certainly the biggest and best UK series but a championship contender who lost out in the last race has just walked away. It strikes me that this may be because, as he is known to have access to a big budget, the teams expect him to pay that, no recognition of achievement.
he is, i think, saying that once a driver brings money they will always be expected to bring money despite of their level of success.

he saying that at some point it needs to become a meritocracy...at some point success on track should translate in a driver having to find less money on their own and the team assuming the responsibility of finding money based on their contracted driver and teams successes.

its motor sports in an industrial setting so using a 'means of production' type analogy seems fitting...but expecting a driver to bring their own money is a bit like saying that the factory workers should have to pay the factory owners for the privilege of working in the factory.

perhaps justifiable in the lower categories but as one progresses up the ladder it makes far less sense imo.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 17:24 (Ref:3690271)   #74
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Thanks Chili, you catch my drift very well

A successful driver with good backing going back to the same team is asked for the same money and rather thinks he may get some merit discount. Other teams quote similar terms. A case of geese and golden eggs

I think the DTM is more attractive to certain drivers when this sort of thing applies

Last edited by old man; 22 Nov 2016 at 17:30.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 17:45 (Ref:3690279)   #75
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I think any driver who says he'd rather be paid to race in the DTM than pay to race in Formula 1 (assuming the funds were available) is lying.
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