LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Think TOCA-engine in BTCC.

Not a clue.

Explanation appreciated!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Not a clue.

Explanation appreciated!

An unbranded and costcapped (in this case originally GM) engine that every team can run, that is however only labelled as TOCA (that's the BTCC's promoter) and not as a GM, so there have been various cars powered by this unit in the past, IIRC among others also Audis and Mercedeses. Though in BTCC you can still elect to develop your own engine, but if you don't went to spend money on that you simply pick up one of the TOCAs.

Come to think about it, that would actually be a much better model for P2.

[Deleted]

But those cars are made by actual car manufacturers with recognizable branding, not obscure little privateer names like Oreca or Dome etc nobody outside racing business has heard of. ACO doesn't want 'Mazdas' or 'Hondas' or 'Chevrolets' in P2. Fake branding like Alpine and Morgan is the most extreme they're comfortable with, and does it really matter what engine title they have under?

HPD is probably the only make that would need unbranded spec engine if they were selected as chassis constructor.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

An unbranded and costcapped (in this case originally GM) engine that every team can run, that is however only labelled as TOCA (that's the BTCC's promoter) and not as a GM, so there have been various cars powered by this unit in the past, IIRC among others also Audis and Mercedeses. Though in BTCC you can still elect to develop your own engine, but if you don't went to spend money on that you simply pick up one of the TOCAs.

Come to think about it, that would actually be a much better model for P2.

I can support that, but it's already set in stone for ACO. Screw variety, make P2 as generic as possible because those people at ACO/FIA want the manufacturers... until those said manufacturers decides to screw it and leave!

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Touche my friend!

Was there ever an Audi P2 engine? For if so, maybe that could be the badge on their backdoor offer, save having to change the cars in the staff car park at Le Mans.

They must have a bunch of near obsolete DTM V8s lying around...

[silente]

I think audi already tried to sell an LMP1-L engine last year....Neil Brown, who worked on Audi´s DTM engines for years, would be very happy about such a scenario...

In my experience, a one make engine will always also give to everybody reasons to complain, since every team will always claim that another team has been treated better and have better engines...

And, actually, if all the engines are really the same, also a tolerance of about 2% on the output maximum power (not to talk about the shape of the torque curve) would produce a sensible performance difference (2% of 500 Hp are 10 Hp....if i was a driver i would pay to have 10 HP more than the others).

[Bob Baldwin]

silentRacer: In the context of everything I don't think 10 HP would make much difference

It would Not offset having the Aero right ,Chasis spot on ,and a better driving style to make up the difference .

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by silente

In my experience, a one make engine will always also give to everybody reasons to complain, since every team will always claim that another team has been treated better and have better engines...

And, actually, if all the engines are really the same, also a tolerance of about 2% on the output maximum power (not to talk about the shape of the torque curve) would produce a sensible performance difference (2% of 500 Hp are 10 Hp....if i was a driver i would pay to have 10 HP more than the others).

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in racing publicly complaining their spec component X being worse than competitors spec component X.

Also the second paragraph sounds like paranoia.

[ger80]

True, Champcar pop off valves were never a point of discussion

[TheMightyM]

Per John Dagys, here’s the odd development of the moment:

ACO Sporting Director Vincent Beaumesnil confirmed to Sportscar365 that the spec engine to be used in the FIA WEC, European and Asian Le Mans Series beginning in 2017 will not be from an OEM but rather from an independent engine builder, in order to allow team-specific engine branding.

What???

[MagVanisher]

Now this is ridiculous! Seems that FIA/ACO took the TOCA engine idea and made it extreme!

[Rcz]

Good thing IMSA isn't following this engine crap so far, now only if they can just get rid of that four chassis limit...

[ger80]

Then why not several independent engines with cost cap, like in the good old LMP2 days AER, Judd and Zytek?

[ModelT]

Originally Posted by ger80

Then why not several independent engines with cost cap, like in the good old LMP2 days AER, Judd and Zytek?

Because the people in Le Mans think it is a good idea to re-invent the wheel I guess! and justify their existence.

[Maelochs]

I am thinking most engine manufacturers don't want to pay the expense of developing an engine and then be forced top sell or lease it at a considerable loss--particularly in a highly competitive environment.

Same thing as with the chassis I'd assume--FIA figures it can charge companies for the privilege of building P2 chassis, and wants to do the same with motors, but the privateer engine builders don't want to pony up the cash to play and lose.

[ModelT]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I am thinking most engine manufacturers don't want to pay the expense of developing an engine and then be forced top sell or lease it at a considerable loss--particularly in a highly competitive environment.

Same thing as with the chassis I'd assume--FIA figures it can charge companies for the privilege of building P2 chassis, and wants to do the same with motors, but the privateer engine builders don't want to pony up the cash to play and lose.

Seems the FIA/ACO is probably suffering from the "Golden Goose Syndrome"....keep hammering it until it doesn't produce anymore, then blame the goose....

Fees, fees and more fees. But I guess someone has to pay for all their fancy lunches and expense accounts, executive car parks et al.

[Ephaeton]

VW seems not interested (german) in (bidding for) building the P2 engine.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

VW seems not interested (german) in (bidding for) building the P2 engine.

Great news there, seems that VW won't have any monopoly on the LMP2 market!

Now then, it's all up to Nissan to take that contract!

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Great news there, seems that VW won't have any monopoly on the LMP2 market!

Now then, it's all up to Nissan to take that contract!

That apparently isn't the direction the ACO wants to go though. Let me repeat the quote above:

ACO Sporting Director Vincent Beaumesnil confirmed to Sportscar365 that the spec engine to be used in the FIA WEC, European and Asian Le Mans Series beginning in 2017 will not be from an OEM but rather from an independent engine builder, in order to allow team-specific engine branding.

[Rodger Davies]

This has got Oreca written all over it...

[Maelochs]

Or maybe Zytec ... sorry, Gibson ... wants to get its hand in since it won't get picked as a chassis supplier?

[MagVanisher]

Got me curious, but does the ACO need a Japanese chassis supplier? But then again, they don't care at all especially for the AsLMS.

[Giba]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

This has got Oreca written all over it...

If they did then they wouldn't be able to supply chassis will they, as you can only apply for one or the other?

[Rodger Davies]

Oh, I didn't know those were the rules. Interesting, thanks for pointing it out.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Or maybe Zytec ... sorry, Gibson ... wants to get its hand in since it won't get picked as a chassis supplier?

Yeah, Zytec or AER with um....body kits.