Goodbye IRL

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

They can't seem to understand the height of popularity, not to mention revenues was in 1994 and 1995.

The CART formula worked and what they have now is neither attractive to look at or listen to.

Oh but then the problem is very easy to srto out! Just provide the IRL teams with a Time machine and everything's gonna be alright!

MS, when will you stop living in the past?

It's a pity Surfers race is gone, but this is racing; every series during their history have gained and lost important tracks.

(Passion round Surfers make me think of Imola, which F1 have lost, it's a pity for Imola, but F1 still survive.)

The risk to lose KV because of it, lets me think that a team which enters a 19 race season just because of one of them (not even the most important) is anyways a short-term venture.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by climb

MS, when will you stop living in the past?

'Living in the past' is an accusation that is common amongst those who support the IRL.

Its actually very rich coming from them considering they wanted to hit the rewind button with the IRL, turning the clock back to an all-American, all-Oval series with NA V8s where USACers could go into like they used to.

Going back to the roots did wonders for Indy Racing didn't it?
Nielson Ratings for the Indy 500 have gone up haven't they?
Indy racing is still considered to be at the same level as Nascar and F1 like it used to in the early 1990s isn't it?

CART and Indy needed each other, once they were seperated it all fell apart, thanks to Tony George.

[Teretonga]

CART and Indy did need each other, and the IRL does need events outside the US if it is to succeed in toppling or competing against NASCAR.

AS long as NASCAR was good old southern boys racing their stock cars around ovals it would have its own brand of North American glamour.
Indy had the others, the fancy race cars and the foreign guys from Europe coming and racing in the good old USA...

However for the IRL to take own NASCAR at its own game (an american boy centred series) will not work.
It has to be a brand of its own, something to differentiate it from NASCAR, and the points of difference in CART were the Nth American drivers vs the world, turbo engines, (not naturally aspirated V8's), a mixture of race courses, (American ovals, and road circuits, and street races) and some overseas races, where it took America to the world. It needed a few, not a lot and they needed to be successful ones.

Surfers was the most successful (When Mansell won in 1993 it had WORLD wide attention), and now its gone. The management of the series, its TV package, its sponsorship etc is all on a slide.
Only TG's personal wealth has kept it alive and now with no real opposition he doesn't have a great incentive anymore to continue to lose money other than keep the Indy 5000 alive....
Thats all the IRL exists for... To keep Indy alive...the way TG wants it.

The IRL hasn't the management structure or skills needed. Its what happens when a wealthy meglomaniac thinks he can right all the worlds wrongs and has enough money to actually believe he can do it.

TG has tried for over 12 years to make it work, but it hasn't, (yet?) so what is going to change.
Until it does there is no way the IRL is going to claw its way back to the status North American open wheel had back in the early 90's.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

MS, when will you stop living in the past?

What was wrong with the past? Why continue to do things poorly?

BTW the A1 car is full blown Ferrari. Look under the hood bro.

If A1 collapses I'll worry about it then. Really all I care about is V8 Supercars anyways.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by climb

The risk to lose KV because of it, lets me think that a team which enters a 19 race season just because of one of them (not even the most important) is anyways a short-term venture.

Its not the team that enters because of one race, its the sponsor which is a big difference.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Really all I care about is V8 Supercars anyways.

If thats the case I feel for you mountainstar.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

If thats the case I feel for you mountainstar.

I love my V8's!!

Champcar is gone, but we have A1 and F1 is actually looking interesting for the first time in 10 years plus the ALMS is kicking so all is good.

I think A1 is going to do fine at Surfers.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Why would no Surfers = no KV Racing? I understand that no Surfers = no Gore/Team Australia money, but a) KV ran one non-AV car this year and b) if sponsorship can be found, why wouldn't we see two? Cause they wouldn't bother after only loosing a single sponsor?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Why would no Surfers = no KV Racing? I understand that no Surfers = no Gore/Team Australia money, but a) KV ran one non-AV car this year and b) if sponsorship can be found, why wouldn't we see two? Cause they wouldn't bother after only loosing a single sponsor?

Actually KV has NO sponsorship right now and both Will Power and Servia have been cut. It's possible the doors could close there.

You might be seeing a lot of irl teams not turning up next March for the season opener. Sponsorship has dried up and blow away like a fart in the wind. No one is happy with the versus tv deal and the economy is quickly looking like 1929.

[D.R.T.]

News about Power and Servia being cut? Their return definately is contingent on sponsorship for the team but that are you saying that their non return is confirmed ?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

News about Power and Servia being cut? Their return definately is contingent on sponsorship for the team but that are you saying that their non return is confirmed ?

No, it's not that they are not wanted, it's just the team has no funding. Therefore they've been released to find other work. They no longer have a contract with KV racing. Of course if they can secure sponsorship, they can return, presuming the team still exists. Power said he was offered a V8 SC deal, but wants to stay in the USA to try to get a seat. There are several teams cutting back or folding over the winter, not to return.

Everyone is looking at the ALMS. Much cheaper and more manufacturer interest. The cost/benefit ratio is better. TV ratings and package are decent or better than the irl. The irl has hostile relations with many people and organizations. People don't want to deal with them.

[Dutton]

I think the IRL's biggest problem is that it hasn't got a good package to offer to get the necessary fiscal and monetary comforts, as opposed to hostile relations playing the major factor. If you have a marketable product with good projection qualities, then great deals of hostility can be pushed to the sidelines.

The problem is the IRL (or Indycar, or whatever it is these days) just isn't a good offer at the moment. I think it is a better offer than it was before CC waved the flag, but that isn't really saying much.

I would agree it is rather likely we are going to see some teams throwing in the towel over the winter, but where we diverge is that I am not going to find satisfaction in it.

[D.R.T.]

In reference to mountainstars post, KV ceasing would surprise me but a 1 car operation would make sense, with NHL and RLR both in need of cash maybe a merger or technical alliance could be on the cards there if NHL only runs 1 car.

[Yannick]

I guess this change is quite a boost for A1GP.
As for IRL, they surely know why they dropped it. Chicagoland will be happy, because their "final race of the season" contract may get prolongued further now.
And when it comes to A1GP in the US, I'd say Long Beach is rather unlikely. What tracks in the US are linked somehow to the Andretti Green team again?
Probably, it will happen there if possible.

[mac]

Look what happens when you get two imovable and obstinate forces (George and Cochrane) to the negotiating table...

My biggest disappointment is the fact that the IRL brought a field of thoroughly professional teams with at least half the field being truly professional drivers. Dixon, Franchitti, Castroneves, Kanaan, Briscoe, Wheldon, Junqueira, Servia, Wilson, Power, Hunter-Reay, Meira and Tagliani are all pretty close to the finished product as far as drivers are concerned - you're always pretty convinced a group like that can put on a good show.

The A1GP guys are all largely up-and-comers and some of them are frankly verging on embarassing at times - I don't think it will be anywhere near as professional or interesting as the IndyCars.

Will still be good to watch - but not as good.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What was wrong with the past? Why continue to do things poorly?

The problem is, restoring the past has never been possible, the only viable solution is to arrange the present the best way given the currently poor resources.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

BTW the A1 car is full blown Ferrari. Look under the hood bro.

For once I think i'm more informed than you

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If A1 collapses I'll worry about it then. Really all I care about is V8 Supercars anyways.

Is it a declaration of love or a jinx, ms?

[climb]

[QUOTE=D.R.T.]Its not the team that enters because of one race, its the sponsor which is a big difference.


...QUOTE]

I don't agree, it makes no difference to me. It's hard to imagine a company that spends some millions USD just in a whole (and long) series calendar, held far outside OZ, in the bare perspective of one soole race being held at home.

[DanicaFan]

The IRL is going nowhere. The IRL has the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick. No further explanation needed.

[Leighton Irwin]

Danica Fan: I agree with your first sentence but probably not the way you meant it. You could also add 'Stompin' Danica' to going nowhere.

[DanicaFan]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

Danica Fan: I agree with your first sentence but probably not the way you meant it. You could also add 'Stompin' Danica' to going nowhere.

Yeah, I could see where it could be took wrong. My meaning was that the IRL is strong, it wont say goodbye, it will only say hellos and get bigger. This is because of the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Yeah, I could see where it could be took wrong. My meaning was that the IRL is strong, it wont say goodbye, it will only say hellos and get bigger. This is because of the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick.

Yes, the Indy 500 is the saviour of everything.

Screw everything else, all the classic venues that made the PPG CART Indycar World Series a rival to both F1 and Nascar before the split.

Forget that the cars all look crap and look the same, sound crap and saound the same, and run on tracks unsuited to open-wheel racing where high downforce and low power means that the style of racing requires little skill and is like an open-wheel version of a Nascar plate race, except unlike Nascars they can't push each other so they end up running two-wide without consequence for 300 miles.

Forget that the drivers are tax-dodgers, metrosexual ladyboys, no-name European pay drivers and the stroppiest ***** ever seen (Danica) who gets into a top team despite not winning anything bar the Pro-Celebrity race at Long Beach since she left karting while more competent and deserving drivers (female and male) get passed over for a seat.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by climb

I don't agree, it makes no difference to me. It's hard to imagine a company that spends some millions USD just in a whole (and long) series calendar, held far outside OZ, in the bare perspective of one soole race being held at home.

Well lets first agree that KV and Team Australia/Aussie Vinyards are different, which your original post failed to address.

The Australia race was important in terms of TA branding, it is not the sole purpose of the sponsorship as you put it. The US events work as an avenue to sell wine in the USA, the Australia event leverages the TA brand locally drawing attention the cause (Australian sporting team) and lets face it, the owner.

The US and Australian event worked hand in hand for Gore and Aussie Vinyards, without Surfers he loses half the benefits.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Yeah, I could see where it could be took wrong. My meaning was that the IRL is strong, it wont say goodbye, it will only say hellos and get bigger. This is because of the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick.

I admire your optimism, but really...

[climb]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

...
The US and Australian event worked hand in hand for Gore and Aussie Vinyards, without Surfers he loses half the benefits.

IMHO the AW need much more visibility in the US than in OZ. The proportion is not 50/50 as you hint, but 17/1 , following the ratio between US and OZ races in the IRL calendar.

They could go on with the current Indycar program, and then add a sponsorship to the future A1 race, or move to Bathurst or other events, to compensate for the IRL's giveup

[venturi]

Originally Posted by johntt

Yes, the Indy 500 is the saviour of everything.

Screw everything else, all the classic venues that made the PPG CART Indycar World Series a rival to both F1 and Nascar before the split.

Forget that the cars all look crap and look the same, sound crap and saound the same, and run on tracks unsuited to open-wheel racing where high downforce and low power means that the style of racing requires little skill and is like an open-wheel version of a Nascar plate race, except unlike Nascars they can't push each other so they end up running two-wide without consequence for 300 miles.

Forget that the drivers are tax-dodgers, metrosexual ladyboys, no-name European pay drivers and the stroppiest ***** ever seen (Danica) who gets into a top team despite not winning anything bar the Pro-Celebrity race at Long Beach since she left karting while more competent and deserving drivers (female and male) get passed over for a seat.

Hit the nail on the head mate , I actually purchased a few domain names thinking the Indy series would really take off with the merger , more tracks better drivers etc , thank god they were only 6.99 US a year .

Tony George you shortsighted *&_ck , may your ridiculous pin nosed looking series wither in unison with your close minded attitude , with a change of car in the next few years you could have had a great international series akin to the Champcars of old , unfortunately you have chosen to play second fiddle to Nascar , putting together an American based series with old open wheel race cars racing on ovals that no one else in the world could give two @#ts about .

I've really enjoyed the last 15 -20 years of american open wheel series , but this may well be the end for me , ovals have no interest for me and like wise for a lot of the population outside the US .

What else has this series to offer ???????

[johntt]

Originally Posted by venturi

Hit the nail on the head mate , I actually purchased a few domain names thinking the Indy series would really take off with the merger , more tracks better drivers etc , thank god they were only 6.99 US a year .

Tony George you shortsighted *&_ck , may your ridiculous pin nosed looking series wither in unison with your close minded attitude , with a change of car in the next few years you could have had a great international series akin to the Champcars of old , unfortunately you have chosen to play second fiddle to Nascar , putting together an American based series with old open wheel race cars racing on ovals that no one else in the world could give two @#ts about .

I've really enjoyed the last 15 -20 years of american open wheel series , but this may well be the end for me , ovals have no interest for me and like wise for a lot of the population outside the US .

What else has this series to offer ???????

Indycar has a place on ovals, so long as they are the right ones; Fontana, Michigan, Loudon, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Indy etc. Most tracks that have 18 degree or less banking and aren't cookie cutter tracks (Texas/Kansas/Kentucky etc) are suitable for Indycars. The plan for the IRL is 50/50 split, whther that will work or not depends on the cars and which tracks they use.

I am willing to give the series a chance come 2011, but i'm not getting my hopes up, a spec chassis and tyres is unappealling but when the economy staightens out I doubt they will open it up to competition. They have the right idea re. engines. but all we have is Miller's word on the matter (and he's someone who has managed to annoy both sides of the OW divide).