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Old 2 Sep 2017, 07:16 (Ref:3763679)   #1
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1 Million Place Grid Penalty

I know Dr Evil doesn't run F1 but why do they give ridiculous grid penalties.
Van Doorne had a 65 place penalty last race and now Alonso's got a 35 place penalty this race.
Hello theres only 20 cars on the grid,F1's supposed to be the apex of motor racing technology but they cant figure out how many cars they have on the grid...
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 10:14 (Ref:3763716)   #2
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It's bordering on infantile application of idiotic rules.... Someone has to see some sense - and soon!
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:20 (Ref:3763735)   #3
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morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's a fine example of the stupidity that has befallen F1 in recent years.
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:21 (Ref:3763736)   #4
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TzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
How else would you penalize them?
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:30 (Ref:3763739)   #5
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I've no idea - not even sure I would. I know that's simplistic and doesn't address the original issue, but the current rules make a laughing stock of F1.....
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:40 (Ref:3763744)   #6
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TzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTzeiTzei should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It's there to stop the rich teams from changing their engines for every session.

The laughter should be aimed at Honda and Renault, who just can't get their act together.
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:45 (Ref:3763746)   #7
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Now Palmer and Hulk have been added. It just means quali is ruined before it begins. I can more understand a time penalty in quali, than a grid penalty
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3763748)   #8
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Originally Posted by TzeiTzei View Post
It's there to stop the rich teams from changing their engines for every session.
Yeah, I know that. That's why I referred to the 'original issue'.
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 12:47 (Ref:3763772)   #9
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Should be easy to stop.
Instead of grid places, take away constructors points.

You might imagine it would stop rather quickly
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 19:58 (Ref:3763881)   #10
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Totally makes qualifying look like a farce when half the cars in the top ten have grid penalties.
Whats the point in having qualifying if half the cars can't start on the grid position they qualify in?....
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 20:07 (Ref:3763886)   #11
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Nearly half of them start on the back row..How do they work that out? It needs sorting urgently and I think Ross will.
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Old 2 Sep 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3763899)   #12
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grantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by djinvicta View Post
Nearly half of them start on the back row..How do they work that out? It needs sorting urgently and I think Ross will.
Somewhere I read a report of Brawn's comments that suggested it would need to be addressed when the next engine rule changes come in. 2021 was mentioned as I recall.

Obviously once one has most of the grid on grid position penalties the large and absurd position adjustment number are required in order to correctly position the cars at the penalty end of the grid using comparative penalty point numbers.

Perhaps they could save money by abandoning qualifying and simply working out start positions based on the number of penalty points applied for changes at each race.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 00:33 (Ref:3763939)   #13
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How about... a car with an engine penalty can't participate in qualifying at all?
The marketing team would implode...
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 06:57 (Ref:3763987)   #14
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alfettafan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Can anyone explain how The penalties are actually applied ? Verstappen has a 20 place penalty and starts 14th, Saint has a ten place penalty and starts 15th ? How is that possible ?
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 10:03 (Ref:3764024)   #15
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Originally Posted by alfettafan View Post
Can anyone explain how The penalties are actually applied ? Verstappen has a 20 place penalty and starts 14th, Saint has a ten place penalty and starts 15th ? How is that possible ?
The F1 site lists the penalties as:
Alonso 35, Ricciardo 20, Verstappen 20, Sainz 10, Hulkenberg 10, Palmer 15

Applied to Qualifying
OrigDriPenNew
2VER2022
3RIC2528
4STR 4
5OCO 5
6BOT 6
7RAI 7
8VET 8
9MAS 9
10VAN 10
11PER 11
12HUL1022
13ALO3548
14KVY 14
15SAI1025
16MAG 16
17PAL1532
18ERI 18
19WEH 19
NCGRO NC

Which results in:
QualDriLines Up
4STR2
5OCO3
6BOT4
7RAI5
8VET6
9MAS7
10VAN8
11PER9
14KVY10
16MAG11
18ERI12
19WEH13
22VER14
22HUL15
25SAI16
28RIC17
32PAL18
48ALO19
NCGRO20
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3764027)   #16
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steve nielsen should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It has already changed again, 25 place penalty for Vandoorne
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 11:12 (Ref:3764040)   #17
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MTW should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Totally silly, especially in yesterday's qualifying, as soon as I was impressed with a display by a driver, the commentator kept saying, "but he won't get eh position because of grid penalty", I couldn't even keep track of it.

Perhaps instead they should give a whining-penalty, first driver to whine that it is too wet to race gets a 10 second penalty. "oh my goodness I slid off the track, I could have broke a finger nail, stop the race!"

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Old 3 Sep 2017, 11:50 (Ref:3764048)   #18
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Jean Todt from the grid in Monza on these silly penalties: "If we can make the situation better, we will do it. We are open to suggestions and we will have a meeting."

Sooner the better Mr Todt. Sooner the better.

Mr Todt has asked for some serious suggestions on this. Please post them here. He often frequents this forum.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3764075)   #19
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TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think we need to look back over the origin of the penalty system. The FIA decided that teams should be restricted to X number of engines and gearboxes per season. (Just like most club racers: if I lost an engine, that was my season over.) But they didn't want to be so draconian as to say "That's it. You can't race for the rest of the year." So they needed to come up with some sort of penalty for those who transgress the rule. It can't be a fine as that negates the idea of reducing costs by limiting engines. The chosen solution was grid penalties. It used to work well because initially teams were able to improve reliability/durability so that they rarely fell foul of the penalties. Occasionally one car (or maybe two) would get hit. This was the way it was supposed to work.

With the introduction of the hybrid engines, the system needed to take account of the changing of each of the major elements in the power unit. I can't remember the exact numbers, but this meant instead of just a 5 place penalty for an engine change, a driver could now get a 30 place penalty for changing all the bits that make up the power unit. Even this would work OK (look at Mercedes and Ferrari) if the power units were reliable. But the problem arises because the Renault is pretty poor and the Honda is an unadulterated pile of poo. So whose fault is it? The FIA? Or Renault and Honda?

There seem to be a lot of people suggesting loss of constructor points instead of grid penalties. But how will it look when McLaren finish the season on -200 points, beaten by some other team that has only -50?
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 14:48 (Ref:3764078)   #20
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Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
But the problem arises because the Renault is pretty poor and the Honda is an unadulterated pile of poo. So whose fault is it? The FIA? Or Renault and Honda?


Sauber are the only team running a Ferrari or Mercedes engine who have received a penalty so far connected to power unit reliability - which is how the system should work.
The complaints should be addressed to the manufacturers of those engines that are not meeting the reliability requirements of F1 in 2017.

Jean Todt should be told that nothing needs to be changed with the penalty system, something needs to be done with the engine manufacturers.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 14:52 (Ref:3764079)   #21
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Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
I think we need to look back over the origin of the penalty system. The FIA decided that teams should be restricted to X number of engines and gearboxes per season. (Just like most club racers: if I lost an engine, that was my season over.) But they didn't want to be so draconian as to say "That's it. You can't race for the rest of the year." So they needed to come up with some sort of penalty for those who transgress the rule. It can't be a fine as that negates the idea of reducing costs by limiting engines. The chosen solution was grid penalties. It used to work well because initially teams were able to improve reliability/durability so that they rarely fell foul of the penalties. Occasionally one car (or maybe two) would get hit. This was the way it was supposed to work.

With the introduction of the hybrid engines, the system needed to take account of the changing of each of the major elements in the power unit. I can't remember the exact numbers, but this meant instead of just a 5 place penalty for an engine change, a driver could now get a 30 place penalty for changing all the bits that make up the power unit. Even this would work OK (look at Mercedes and Ferrari) if the power units were reliable. But the problem arises because the Renault is pretty poor and the Honda is an unadulterated pile of poo. So whose fault is it? The FIA? Or Renault and Honda?

There seem to be a lot of people suggesting loss of constructor points instead of grid penalties. But how will it look when McLaren finish the season on -200 points, beaten by some other team that has only -50?
As I have posted in the Future Rules Change thread....

For me the obvious option if F1 is to continue with the "limited" number of power unit bits, would be to hit the teams with championship points penalties.

But struggling teams (possibly because of engine issues) may not be getting many points, so do we want to see the lower places in the contractors championship decided in a battle between teams in negative numbers?

Likewise imposing a fine on teams wouldn't work either, what is beer money for Mercedes or Ferrari could be a significant amount over the season for a smaller team.

My solution would be a secondary points structure.

Firstly lets start with a reasonable number of bits to begin with for the season...lets face it 10 or 12 are built per car as spares for the 4 that are allowed, plus any new development bits as the season goes on.

Each race where a constructor uses 1 additional part they are racing for a revised constructors points list of 2 points less than normal scored and have to finish in the top 9 to score points.

1st: 23pts, 2nd: 16pts, 3rd: 13pts, 4th: 10pts, 5th: 8pts, 6th: 6pts, 7th: 4pts, 8th: 2pts and 9th 1pt.

If 2 or more parts are used then a points list of 4 points less than normal and have to finish in the top 8

1st: 21pts, 2nd: 16pts, 3rd: 11pts, 4th: 8pts, 5th: 6pts, 6th: 4pts 7th: 2pts and 8th 1pt.

Drivers points would remain the same.

Edit to add

If there was a way of including gearbox into this in a fair way, I'd be for removing that grid penalty as well.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 16:43 (Ref:3764112)   #22
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So for Monza, Perez qualified 11th, got a 5 place penalty and started 10th. Good to see we're making this sport accessible to fans.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 20:38 (Ref:3764250)   #23
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Yep, it makes complete sense......
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 21:02 (Ref:3764270)   #24
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Nearly half of them start on the back row..How do they work that out?
They could do a landrush start, like motocross or short course off road truck racing.
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Old 3 Sep 2017, 21:05 (Ref:3764273)   #25
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Forget qualifying. Line them up in Echelon in reverse points order and have the drivers sprint from a line at the exit of the last corner to get in their cars.....
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