The third car - How much has it contributed to BAR's success?

[JohnSSC]

Obviously BAR has transformed itself from the former acronym (which I promised not to use anymore) into a contender.

A large portion of the credit no doubt goes to the engineers who have designed/refined the car. Their effort shows nearly every race.

My question is this: due to last year's performance, BAR was able to run the third car with Davidson in the pilot's seat at each venue this season. What do all of you think the benefit has been to the team insofar as race/qualifying setups and the improvements in performance by Button and T Sato - particularly Sato?

[300kph]

for me, it has done little for the team but a lot to Davidson...The BAR's strong showing is accredited to the package itself who was incredibly fast since birth...

[f1_smiley]

can't recall where i read it but it does somehow give a big boost for ant and at the same time gives enough leeway for jense and taku's engines during the race weekend. ant can drive to the limits of the car and give enough technical feedback to the team. jense and taku meanwhile are able to preserve their engines/car for the race itself. nice advantage.

[climb]

BAR have grown a lot themselves, regardless the 3rd driver.
As 300koph rightly points out, it has certainly been useful for Ant.
Bar too, have takne advantage but only from a setup point of view.
Setup is obviously very important, but if the car is a dog there's little good.

[JohnSSC]

But I would have to think that having the 3rd car would be like a "focused test." All of the results from the technical data would apply specifically to the track and, imho, translate into a rather sizable advantage.

DC was complaining a bit about BAR being able to do this a bit earlier in the season. I am thinking this is more than just an experiential benefit for Davidson. The raw data must help a great deal in evaluating the settings needed for each sector of the track.

[Kicking-back]

If the third car wasn't an advantage, they wouldn't run it.

Simple!

[climb]

It's an advantage, but if the car is bad it can't help much.
DC can complain about BAR's 3rd driver, but with such a lemon he has to drive, even with 5 more dirver testing during the weekend, he wouldn't have done much more than he has till now.

[sonic]

I think primarily it helps in gaining knowledge about the behaviour of the tyres on long runs. Davison regularly runs 2 x 20+ lap stints in the second friday sessions - which gives the team info that last years top 4 just can't afford to get. so BAR can adjust set-up accordingly and their tyre choice is more often likely to be the right one.

I think also when you have a situation such as sato stacking it in the second session at Indy the 3rd driver can make sure the team don't lose out on any info and the team doesn't suffer whatsoever.

[f1atic]

This is a "NO-BRAINER" IMO.
The whole point to using a 3rd car was to assist the slower teams. I think it has helped BAR (and others) to test for race setup, strategy, tire selection and etc. It has also allowed for a lot of engine and other component testing on specific circuits not normally available to teams for that purpose.

[Adam43]

Yes, but it strikes me that BAR have been using it more for information about that event as opposed to long term testing.

Is that the same down the grid?

[Gt_R]

When a team such as Mclaren starts to argue with the FIA over this issue, the significance of 3rd cars cannot be overlooked.

Let's put it this way. If two championship fighting teams were competing, one being allowed to run (due to previous year's poor results) precious amount of testing at the race meet more than the others..would it not help?

BAR itself has improved alot over the winter to be where they are now. It's not just a 3rd car that made them competitive today. It's been worked hard back at the factory from before the first race that results in today's success.

The 3rd car only contribute to sharpen and refine BAR's superb form, giving the team useful information regarding tyre evaluation, long distance set up data and such. If BAR had screwed the car, no much 3rd car in fri practice could have made a winner out of it.

[Tye]

It has helped the team immensely!

I'd just like to know which driver has benefited the most from Davidson's running.

Tye

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Tye

I'd just like to know which driver has benefited the most from Davidson's running.

The whole BAR team

[Logrence]

Button uses Davidson's setup info the most, so I've heard.

But I think the 3rd car situation has been a tremendous race-day boost for the team - a lot of the troubles teams have had this season have been setup related - Montoya is a notoriously bad setup driver, and the reduced time of late has harmed him I'm sure.

Any extra time on track a team can get at a grand prix will be hugely beneficial.

[Tye]

Originally posted by Logrence
Button uses Davidson's setup info the most, so I've heard.

But I think the 3rd car situation has been a tremendous race-day boost for the team - a lot of the troubles teams have had this season have been setup related - Montoya is a notoriously bad setup driver, and the reduced time of late has harmed him I'm sure.

Any extra time on track a team can get at a grand prix will be hugely beneficial.

I would've thought that myself Logrence. If what your saying is true, that is too bad.

Do you have any sources?

Tye

[Logrence]

Peter Windsor has always said that Juan Pablo has problems with his setup, Brundle has mentioned in his commentary that Button uses Davidson's setup ideas.

My only sources work for Mercedes and Lola...

[oziengineer]

I think that BAR should be allowed to continue using the third car, but as they are doing so well this year, it might be an idea to limit their use of it, as it is given them an advantage. No question that it has helped them demonstrate. Still, it's a good showcase for anthony davidson, he's extremely talented and deserves a race seat.

[Kicking-back]

Limit their use of it?

That's unfair.

They won't be able to use it next year, because they'll finish in the top four this season, which is fair.

[Logrence]

McLaren and Williams will end up with a third car next season at this rate - another race like the last one and they'll get overtaken by Minardi in the points standings.

[Kicking-back]

I thought I saw both McLarens finish ahead of the Minardi at the last race.

Obviously I was looking the wrong way

[Logrence]

I thought I saw Michael Schumacher ahead of Rubens on the restart - obviously the FIA were looking the wrong way.

But really - how embarassing is it for a team of McLaren's calibre to finish a race like that behind everyone except a Minardi? The team who could run a whole season on Norbert Haug's expense account?