A rant on to closed to club race meetings

[Derwent Motorsp]

I've been involved in all types of motorsport all my life, both as an organiser and competitor. Now when a club organises a rally, or a speed event, for example on a Nationl B permit they can invite many other clubs or even two regional associaions of clubs. This is normal practice.
In racing it seems that either clubs run effectively closed to club meetings or only invite specific championships.
I don't particularly want to follow a championship or series but just do a few events that I enjoy. For reasons of distance, my "clerking" duties and holidays my free weekends to race are limited. I have tried to enter a few meetings where there was a suitable race but I was told I would have to join the club (even part fee) and not get the club discount for registered championship drivers. As a member of the MGCC and my own local club I don't see the need to join any more. The particular races I wanted to do did not get full entries so the club lost out by being greedy.
I about the only club that does open up its races is the Bentley DC and in some cases the VSCC.

[Lancsbreaker]

I'm sure a lot of people agree with you - there has been considerable debate on this topic in other threads on this forum........Al Weyman in particular arguing the same case as you....See this thread: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130625

I can see that series organisers need to raise a certain amount of revenue upfront, as they have to commit to circuit hire well in advance, but equally sure that some form of differential entry fees could be sorted, with none-registered racers allowed an entry at a slightly higher entry fee provided no registered competitors are refused an entry - ie whenever there are spare places. Obviously they wouldn't be eligible for points / awards etc.....

[historic racer]

I have said this in other forums , relating back to the 70s when you joined one club and were invited by other organising club to the events, Brands club races were usually over subscribed. The clubs now are greddy and money grabbing being over protective of their own little empires. Most clubs seem to be run by people who have no flair ,drive or business sense, for instance last year tried to get a one off entry to a clubs event but was turned down unless I joined and registered, the grid was not full so could they really afford to turn me away , the secretary has the business skills of a rock ape ! This year we are trying to stay racing in the south and am having a hard job trying to get clubs to let us race without joining etc, it would work out about 3 races with each club, do they want us or not, if they pi55 me off too much I might just call it a day and stop sponsoring the car that I run . The 360 club seem to have the right idea no club fees so we will enter their sprint race , perhaps they could organise more events, would have full grids with that philosophy. Might even get a reply from clubs on here but doubt it as they sit in their ivory towers with the shutters drawn.

[terence]

Well,there's a thought! Claire,John,what do you think?

[McMuttley]

Originally Posted by historic racer

Most clubs seem to be run by people who have no flair ,drive or business sense, for instance last year tried to get a one off entry to a clubs event but was turned down unless I joined and registered....

Sorry but such a generalist comment based upon one experience should not slurr all organisations. For a start, "Clubs" are just that, they serve their Members first and so they should; although some such as HSCC go way beyond this, providing a wider role. You can't expect to go around 'gatecrashing' events just because that is your want. I would dread the thought that at every race that our Club organised, the grids numbers were made up with a bunch of 'angry locals' who were wound up against the 'esablishment and might not, for example, have full resect for the event, the machinery or the other competitors.

Let me know where you live, I'll post your address on the Ten-Tinkers Forum, they dont like paying rates up-front, or taxes, or adding to the community; but would love to live in your back yard for free.

[historic racer]

Originally Posted by McMuttley

Sorry but such a generalist comment based upon one experience should not slurr all organisations. For a start, "Clubs" are just that, they serve their Members first and so they should; although some such as HSCC go way beyond this, providing a wider role. You can't expect to go around 'gatecrashing' events just because that is your want. I would dread the thought that at every race that our Club organised, the grids numbers were made up with a bunch of 'angry locals' who were wound up against the 'esablishment and might not, for example, have full resect for the event, the machinery or the other competitors.

Let me know where you live, I'll post your address on the Ten-Tinkers Forum, they dont like paying rates up-front, or taxes, or adding to the community; but would love to live in your back yard for free.

You have read through my post but not into it, what we have is not a useful contribution to the discussion but a personal attack on myself. If the last part is a sample of your capabilities , you would be best served by keeping your stupid comments to yourself ! You do not name the club which you seem to be a self appointed spokesman for, would be interested to know. I will answer one point which you have, for some self important reason, have labelled as " gate crashing " . The club concerned will not be named in case they cannot defend themselves but basically offered to run my driver in one event as an invited entry, with no awards nor allocation of points so that regulars would be in no way affected , it would be as if we were not really there but was still turned down. To race in the south would cost some £500 to join and register with four clubs , money I am not prepared to spend , so what is the alternative ? One option is to turn my back on motor racing, how does that benefit the sport, you would probably say do it ( rock ape mentallity kicks in ) and loose my financial contribution permanantly. Another option is for clubs to offer me day membership for my driver for say £20, again running as invited and no awards of trophy's or points , perhaps even you can figure that answer out ???

[McMuttley]

Take a chill pill - what's personal ???

Your post invites/provokes response? Your post comments critically on others, so dont get umpty if the responses aren't all cuddly.

This is sport/leisure sector like any, where there a mix of people/companies/organisations that serve/support competitors and make money in the process; whilst at the same time others do it for the love of the sport.

I dont begrudge those making a profit from running a business and I am hugely grateful to those that, whether for profit or not, allow me to have fun when I can (whilst for the main part of the year, I can focus on earning a crust just about thick enough to scrape a few races out of).

As others have hinted, registration fees represent such a small amount of a season's racing for any individual / team. For me - a modest club racer without the budget to do a full year - registration costs are less than 1% to 1.5%.

Taking into account, for example; storage, insurance, paying the man who knows what he is doing to prep, repair and set up the car so that i can have fun (he runs a business and deserves to make a profit - dont you ??), fuel at and to/from races (taxes and oil company profits), tyres (Avon, i'm happy to recieve tyres at cost or less if you want to offer), parts and rebuilds (again i think you'd agree these are honest people looking for some profit from a sport / business they love), budget hotel costs (they need to pay staff to clean the room), etc etc etc etc. Of course I would also like my bank manager to waive bank charges when I use my overdraft (their money actually) to fund the next race costs / entry fee / new cranky shatfy thingamywhotsit.

A tedious way of making a point, but I think this whole registration cost point is a bit of a herring; if you are willing to spend on what we all have to admit is something of a luxury sport (at whatever level), then the registration cost is bugger all.

I dont have the ability or expertise to create and promote a race/series, search for venues and dates that might suit racers and not conflict with other events. I dont have the cash to negotiate with Mr Palmer, to pay fees/deposits months up-front, I wouldnt know how to provide for insurance/public liability, advertising, etc etc...

I do, however, appreciate how reassuring it is to turn up to a venue/event when all the circuit officials, club staff, marshalls know what is going on and are there solely to make it so easy for me to go out and have fun. I am happy to pay what is a tiny fraction of my overall costs for what is a hugely beneficial service.

I don't represent / promote / defend any club. Like most posters, I speak freely.

I am, hugely grateful to those individuals, companies and volunteers/organisations that spend huge amounts of time creating the opportunties to race.

Rather than get anti-establishment over minimal registration fees; I'd rather we discussed how organisers / events might levy a service charge on 'drivers having fun' to help marshalls; we tip taxi drivers, waitressers etc etc; these guys and gals put themselves out (and often at risk) just for us to have fun.

I wont be responding any more on registration fees, its a herring that become a kipper.

[Al Weyman]

Yep I agree with all of the above, the whole policy is simply self defeating. For what I want to do this year will cost me no less than £410 before I start which is daft and the consequence is I wont be, their loss IMHO.

[Al Weyman]

Maybe the MSA should take a lead here and ban these requirements to belong to clubs or register for championships after all according to their rules you only have to belong to one MSA registered club so just maybe the rule is already in place and the clubs are breaking the rules by this insistance they must join other clubs. When I ran the Racing Saloon Car Club I charged a nominal £25 a year which covered costs for newsletters etc (nothing fancy just a black and white copy) and postage and a few club trophies and I still had funds left over at the end of the year in fact I bought an expensive EaziUp marquee one year but that was not really required. I recon today with the internet and email I could do it for a score a year max. All the other club activities like end of year bash should be self financing or dropped. And do we really need things like fancy T-shirts etc, if I want a t-shirt I will by one or print one, and also a well run club should be selling their own and making a bit of extra money as I have offered to set up many times and supply and ensure there is something left in it for the club but it doesnt happen as its easier to just stick the fees up again. Also take the BARC colour mag, does anyone actually read the thing, I don't. I dread to think what the annual costs of that are at least CTCRC had the sense to drop theirs.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

....... When I ran the Racing Saloon Car Club I charged a nominal £25 a year which covered costs for newsletters etc (nothing fancy just a black and white copy) and postage and a few club trophies .................

Lest we forget; to run in that championship one had to be a member of the BARC who arranged the circuits and events and thus took the risk on filling the grids.

But I do have a question for you. If someone wanted to run in your races on an ad hoc basis, did you require some form of membership fee?

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Lest we forget; to run in that championship one had to be a member of the BARC who arranged the circuits and events and thus took the risk on filling the grids.

But I do have a question for you. If someone wanted to run in your races on an ad hoc basis, did you require some form of membership fee?

Yes we allowed it on occassions as I recollect and I believed asked for a donation to the club and no points, it all depended on the circumstances but as the fee to join was nominal it generally wasnt an issue. Also I agree BARC did require membership which was fair enough as they did the donkey work and as you said took the risks which enabled our club to keep registration/membership at a very low fee, I dont think many would object to that. Also

[johngee]

It's not so much 'what we think', which is well known. We (as in 360MRC) have chosen to go one way, which we believe is in the best interests of the customers (competitors).
What other clubs/championships/series choose to do, is really up to them - I guess time will tell, when the customers vote in their clubs, with their feet or otherwise.

[terence]

Sorry John,hadn't realised that Al's post came straight after historic racers,the post my reply was in response too.
I sometimes wonder IF it is indeed possible to put on a non profit race series.Obviously well aware of circuit hire costings and so on.

[Al Weyman]

£220 or more for a 15 minute race free? I dont think so. Enough already before the whole thing implodes, just dont need anymore expenses on top of the entries.

[Mike Bell]

I think we need to be careful to differentiate between clubs that represent a region or specific make / type of car and pure circuit racing clubs. As a member of the Sporting Car Club of Norfolk I receive invitations to more events run by other clubs- usually in the same region. But they will be for rallies, autotests, trials etc. I wouldn't compare what the SCCON do with HSCC or CSCC, for instance! The BDC and VSCC also in my view cannot be compared with them.

I guess charging a registration fee, as some clubs do, for a championship was / is a way of getting us competitors to commit to several races or all to get vfm? Unfortunately for most of us nowadays it isn't practical with so many clubs and so many events all over Europe to choose from. Looking at this year I would like to do one event with organiser A, couple with organiser B, maybe 3 with organiser C and same with club D. At the end of the day if that involves paying a fee to all of them to join or register (or both!) before paying entry fee, sadly it isn't going to happen.

Would be good to list the clubs and organisations not requiring a fee of some sort? 360MRC has already been mentioned, and Jim Lowry has declared that the Equipe GTS series running mostly with AMOC this year will not require a fee to register. Among the commercial organisations, last year Motor Racing Legends did not require any other payment apart from entry, and from memory neither have GTSCC or Carol Spragg with her various series.

Of the ones requiring money up front, AFAIK HSCC membership allows you to race in any of their championships without registration fee on top? What about the other 'historic' clubs?

[Derwent Motorsp]

I don't really see why the clubs that run race meetings are any different to clubs that runs rallies, speed events autotests etc. The local club of which I am secretary, has some 600 members so is perhaps bigger than some of the racing only clubs. The commercial risk of running a forest stage rally is perhaps bigger than that of many race meetings
I just don't understand McMuttley's point that people can't do the events they want to without signing up for a whole series. It is only in racing that that exists. For example today at Croft there is a single venue rally on the circuit with 70 plus entries from about 20 different clubs.
Last August whenthe HSCC ran a meeting at Croft, quite a few local drivers wanted to enter who don't normally do HSCC events as they are so southern based. The extra fees they wanted in order for us to enter were about £50 I think, thus they ran with less than full grids and will have had a reduced income.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

I don't really see why the clubs that run race meetings are any different to clubs that runs rallies, speed events autotests etc.

Graeme, my point was that while in a club such as CSCC (for example), all the members will belong to it as they race with them, with a regional club like SCCON (again for example!) people will join for various reasons. If the latter puts on a special stage rally it is not going to fill the entry with own members. It needs to invite other clubs and vice versa when they put on similar events. If pure racing clubs can stay solvent just with their own membership then they will probably continue to charge 'day membership' or whatever. Incidentally HSCC charge £10 for a 'once per season' day membership so not sure where your figure of £50 came from. Maybe twice per season would be fairer looking at full membership cost, but I'd pay that if it meant getting a race with them!

[Robyn Slater]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Last August whenthe HSCC ran a meeting at Croft, quite a few local drivers wanted to enter who don't normally do HSCC events as they are so southern based. The extra fees they wanted in order for us to enter were about £50 I think, thus they ran with less than full grids and will have had a reduced income.

It cost me more than £100 in fuel to travel to Croft and back.

Just a thought on how much it costs to race,period.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

It cost me more than £100 in fuel to travel to Croft and back.
Just a thought on how much it costs to race,period.

fair point, with what I save by not having to pay joining / registration / membership fees I can race at Spa (316 miles) instead of Croft (264 miles) - no contest!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't.

Good point, because the Market will sort out which series survive and which don't. The MGCC Midget championship has just dropped its registration fee to £40 as long as you register in advance of thes season. The fee was previously £150 and it was seen as one of the reasons for falling entries.

The Porsche 924 championship fee is IIRC £265, or about the cost of a race entry. This on top of BRSCC membership and BRSCC race membership. I can only assume that your average Porsche driver is trying to keep hoi poloi such as me out of their races, and I respect their stance

But the OP's rant was about "closed to club" events, rather than in the rally or speed event world where regional association member clubs are cross-invited. It doesn't happen in racing, is there any reason why? Alex raced his kart at Clay Pigeon last year on a Llandow Club card, because ABKC clubs are cross-invited nationwide. What is it about racing clubs that makes them so cliquey?

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't. If there are viable alternatives then please table them. IMO and with respect to the OP, all this thread is saying is that life isn't fair and that anyone should be able to race wherever and whenever they like.

I think the reason this is now coming to the fore and being raised repeatedly in discussion is twofold. (a) Recession and (b) cost of petrol. For both these reasons guys want to simply cut down on their travelling or be forced to give up. The argument this is just a small cost in the whole scheme of things doesnt hold water to me either as it could be the straw that broke the camels back and the deciding factor do I race or dont I. The days when a club held 12 rounds all over the country and you signed up for that and committed are gone, also many clubs have condensed the calendar to 6 to 8 rounds freeing up dates for guys that want more racing and would like to do local rounds so this may be a third reason this is now coming about. Maybe its about time clubsa with similar series/championships opened their doors to members of rival clubs as I am sure it would work for both clubs mutual benifits and get those grids filled!!!!!.

[andy97]

There ARE several clubs that will allow 1 or 2 "taster" races a season without needing to register for the series, CSCC being one of them. You do need to join the club but £35-40 isn't too much of a hardship surely?

Clubs also need the registration money at the start of the money to provide some form of cash flow or "float" to cover the quieter off season. Clubs only make money by putting on race meetings; thes happen mostly in March to Oct & yet the clubs will have expendutres all through the year & need to pay for circuit hire probably for their first two meetings of the year at least in February.

That said, the reg fee for the Porsche series mentioned is over the top IMHO. A reg fee of £100 seems reasonable to me if you are going to do the majority of a season.

[IAN #51]

I've raced with the CSCC for a number of years Andy in Swinging sixties , Classic K , Future Classics and now with the RAFMSA who charge a 10th of what the CSCC do in terms of reg fees.

Can you explain to me what the registration fee covers

Trophies should be included in race entry fee as should admin costs
The series co-ordinators have been in my experience volunteers
There is no championship fee as these are series

So what does the 100 quid do on top of my membership I've already paid

Not singling CSCC out they are a great club but I've always wondered what the Reg fee pays for

Ian

[andy97]

The reg fees contribute to the income of the club to help pay for it to run. Simple as that really. All clubs have overheads - Rent/ mortgages, staff costs, insurance, IT, Utilities etc. The reg fee is just part of the income, without it, then the club would have to put up race entry fees markedly so as to be able to put money aside to cover the off season costs. Now, members can argue for a different financial model if they wish & I'm sure that the club would listen to any proposals. Other clubs have higher membership fees for eg, whereas CSCC splits it into a Membership fee (£39) & a reg fee (£99). Some clubs have much higher membership fees & much higher series registration fees!

PS. The RAFMSA can charge a 10th of what the CSCC do as a registration fee as they have no full time office & staff to run & may get a grant from the sports fund of the RAF to help them out.

[Alan Morgan]

I run the Historic FF2000 Association so have had some experience of this. We ask for a voluntary contribution of £50 from our members each year and the vast majority of drivers are happy to pay it. In return they get food and beer at every meeting for themselves and their helpers. £50 per driver does not cover this cost and I spend time getting individual sponsors to support our races to make up the shortfall. Most years we end up with a small surplus and this has paid for an EZ-Up, generator, tables etc.

Our championship is run by the HSCC and competing drivers do need to be members of the club (£150). If a driver wants do do a single race then the HSCC offer a Day Membership for something like £20 and we would not ask them to pay anything to our association, even though they would be more than welcome to join us for food and drink at our paddock social gathering. I think that's a pretty fair deal for anyone who is unwilling or unable to take in a full season.