IMSA USCC in 2016 and 2017

[TF110]

To me, this 'dpi is the answer' talk is all wishful thinking. No, they are not the answer. No one wants a semi spec class being the top class at LM. And seemingly no one is interested in the hybrid technology. I think it's because it is hard to jump in and be competitive. The same thing is happening in F1.

DPi is not a success, yet. It has one race under it's belt and that was not very good. The Caddies were like the diesel Audi's vs the rest of the alms grid. Bop is also a topic of debate and we don't know how that will factor in on future entries. I see lmp1 growing more than dpi honestly. Even if it is just private teams. Toyota, Porsche, Manor and Kolles plus one more team (a Ginetta or SMP Dallara) equals the total of current dpi's. The sky is not falling, and the silly idea that it is makes me chuckle.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TF110

To me, this 'dpi is the answer' talk is all wishful thinking. No, they are not the answer. No one wants a semi spec class being the top class at LM. And seemingly no one is interested in the hybrid technology. I think it's because it is hard to jump in and be competitive. The same thing is happening in F1.

DPi is not a success, yet. It has one race under it's belt and that was not very good. The Caddies were like the diesel Audi's vs the rest of the alms grid. Bop is also a topic of debate and we don't know how that will factor in on future entries. I see lmp1 growing more than dpi honestly. Even if it is just private teams. Toyota, Porsche, Manor and Kolles plus one more team (a Ginetta or SMP Dallara) equals the total of current dpi's. The sky is not falling, and the silly idea that it is makes me chuckle.

I wonder how your tune would sound if Toyota fielded a DPi.

It's plain to see from anyone that the Toyota group is all you care about.

[carbsmith]

If no one will run a hybrid P1 they'll let manufacturers run non-hybrid P1s, that's the obvious (and unlikely) back up plan. Switching to an American LMP2 class for manufacturers that won't run Le Mans anyways makes no sense by comparison.

$2 billion for 3 years in LMP1 is one of the most laughably absurd bull*** things I've ever read about the WEC, I don't think Mercedes has even spent $2 billion on F1 since they decided to have their own team. Toyota barely spent more than $2 billion on F1 in total either. $1 billion in 4 years is what Ecclestone suggested Haas needs to spend to be competitive.

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Remember when alms had a nice p2 class and then adopted aco specs and ended up with Tucker and one other car?.

No, I definitely don't. LMP2 in ALMS had 3 cars both years before the cost cap rules. The 2011-2013 LMP1 everyone likes to make fun of was the same teams and cars as 2009-2010 LMP2.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matt

I wonder how your tune would sound if Toyota fielded a DPi.

It's plain to see from anyone that the Toyota group is all you care about.

That's wrong and actually a shallow viewpoint. I can't wait to see dpi go to LM, but it won't be in place of lmp1. Btw, I root for Mazda and Subaru just as much as Toyota.

I got a laugh at some of the absurd things said though. And the billions of dollars for a prototype project is really way out of proportion. Every major manufacturer sells a hybrid car. Every single one. It's road relevant and they don't cost much more than a regular non-hybrid version of the same car. The technology is out there. It's not insanely expensive either.

[Maelochs]

Re: Formula Fox--yes, I already said everything you said over the last few pages. Re: TF110--DPi is not a success, yet? Maybe you missed the Rolex? Sure, it has some seasoning needed, some tweaking ... before it will reach the glories of P1-L ... one dead Rebellion, one flaming dead Kolles, and one crippled Rebellion limping to a "title."

As I have said, I can see DPi of some sort being incorporated into P1-L ... after all, other than the manufacturer involvement, there isn't a lot of difference between the actual vehicles (ask rebellion---it's part of why they did so well in testing for the Rolex---they were in almost a clone chassis to the R1.)

No one has Ever saind "in place of lmp1."

You know, I don't mean to promote myself, but I and some others have pretty well hashed all this out over the past several pages, and frankly, I think we have covered all the bases. When people ignore all that and start bringing up stuff which has been amply addressed ... it is sort of that "Fake News" stuff, creating a debate where there is none, which really doesn't serve any purpose.

Anyway ... if people have not read or do not recall the contents of this and this DPi thread ... that's cool. This is an Internet forum, where things should be laid back ... not scholastically rigorous.

Finally I agree with TF110---the cost for a P1-H program is prohibitively ridiculous. That is what (IMO) is going to hurt and maybe kill P1-H ... no way there is sufficient RoI on a brand new P1-H program for almost any manufacturer.

Oh, and TF110 .... just a tad biased in favor of Japan?

Originally Posted by TF110

I root for Mazda and Subaru just as much as Toyota.

We have both kinds of music .... Country And Western.

[Speed-King]

No one has Ever saind "in place of lmp1."

I'll do it:

When (not if) the current P1 class collapses, DPi will become to P1H what WSC was to GTP.

[TF110]

The Rolex24Hours was not a 'success' for the new dpi cars imo. It was a first race but the only car that could win was the Cadillac's. I like the idea of bodywork resembling the manufacturer, but I don't think the spec lmp2 chassis basis is a good idea and neither is bop'ing them to lmp2 pace. Those cars (minus maybe the ESM at present) can run lighter and more power. They should be allowed to develop freely not neutered. Maybe the p1 class could allow that. But there's no reason to think the hybrids are going to die because VW's bad behavior made them quit their diesel program.

I think the health in this series is getting more manufacturers to join. Some of them like McLaren aren't going to be putting up the fee to enter, and that's sad. There's a lot of gtd cars but more can never hurt.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the health in this series is getting more manufacturers to join. Some of them like McLaren aren't going to be putting up the fee to enter, and that's sad. There's a lot of gtd cars but more can never hurt.

The success of any top-tier sportscar series is the success of the top tier of prototypes.

As for a GTD/GT3 series .. Pirelli World Challenge has limited appeal ... Stephane Ratel has a real hit with Blancpain ... the Creventic endurance races are great.

None of them are in the same league as WEC ... and it isn't because WEC has a strong GT grid.

WEC needs two absolutely committed manufacturers in P1-H ... they had to beg and plead to get Toyota to replace Peugeot, or they couldn't call it a World Championship.

Toyota and Porsche might be willing to lay out anywhere from a few to several million euros each season ... and still won't match what Audi did with its huge cash outlay, B2B, hospitality and promotion budget. And if at any time for any reason, either one gets tired of huger spending ... say if Toyota gets beat badly for another two seasons ....

As for IMSA, they have a popular top class. They could screw it up with BoP, but otherwise ... if the fans like to watch the cars, then what a few mystics living in the caves of imaginarily pure sportscar racing dream or is of no import.

Yes, of course, Some fans want open development, "build to these minimum dimensions and weight" rules ... but news flash---a series has to also be a successful business.

Saying IMSA should adopt Can-Am's rules is great in a fantasy, but in the real world, even ALMS' rules couldn't be supported financially.

It is likely that IMSA will Never be like WEC. Just as IndyCar will never really equal F1. Those two series have strong European roots, strong historical roots, strong global roots ... So trying to turn IndyCar into F1 or trying to tuen IMSA into WEC will always fail.

The North American series have to work in the North American market, where the money and the interest for unlimited or ultra-high-dollar racing simply doesn't exist.

[TF110]

I was actually talking about the dpi formula going on to be put in use in the wec. If they were to do that, there's an entirely different precedent set, to actually progress on the lmp1-h cars.

Imsa won't change it seems. Their mindset is to do an almost Nascar way of prototypes and instead of making the differences in cars shine with the teams own development work, they want the difference to be the looks, and to a lesser extent the sound.

Well, at least the cars look and sound different. Thank goodness for that. It could have been a spec engine like lmpc or lmp2, so there's one thing I can nod to.

[Dyson Mazda]

I would still love to see 8 ACO Approved Classes with the structure looking like this:

P1 - ACO P1
GTP^ - IMSA P
P2^* - ACO P2
P3^* - ACO P3

GT1 - ACO GTE
GT2* - ACO GTE
GT3^* - GT3 / IMSA GTD
GT4^* - GT4

^ = Performance Balanced
* = Pro/Am

With the series looking like this

24 Hours of Le Mans
P1
GTP
P2
GT1
GT2

WEC
P1
P2
GT1
GT2

IMSA - USCR
GTP
P2
GT1
GT3

IMSA - Conti
P3
GT4

ELMS - Main
GTP
P2
GT2

ELMS - Feeder
P3
GT4

Asian Le Mans Series
P2
P3
GT3
GT4

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The success of any top-tier sportscar series is the success of the top tier of prototypes.

As for a GTD/GT3 series .. Pirelli World Challenge has limited appeal ... Stephane Ratel has a real hit with Blancpain ... the Creventic endurance races are great.

None of them are in the same league as WEC ... and it isn't because WEC has a strong GT grid.

WEC needs two absolutely committed manufacturers in P1-H ... they had to beg and plead to get Toyota to replace Peugeot, or they couldn't call it a World Championship.

Toyota and Porsche might be willing to lay out anywhere from a few to several million euros each season ... and still won't match what Audi did with its huge cash outlay, B2B, hospitality and promotion budget. And if at any time for any reason, either one gets tired of huger spending ... say if Toyota gets beat badly for another two seasons ....

As for IMSA, they have a popular top class. They could screw it up with BoP, but otherwise ... if the fans like to watch the cars, then what a few mystics living in the caves of imaginarily pure sportscar racing dream or is of no import.

Yes, of course, Some fans want open development, "build to these minimum dimensions and weight" rules ... but news flash---a series has to also be a successful business.

Saying IMSA should adopt Can-Am's rules is great in a fantasy, but in the real world, even ALMS' rules couldn't be supported financially.

It is likely that IMSA will Never be like WEC. Just as IndyCar will never really equal F1. Those two series have strong European roots, strong historical roots, strong global roots ... So trying to turn IndyCar into F1 or trying to tuen IMSA into WEC will always fail.

The North American series have to work in the North American market, where the money and the interest for unlimited or ultra-high-dollar racing simply doesn't exist.

Not in agreement to that. GT classes are THE show more often than not. Grand Am's GT was very weak. That more than the ugly DP cars was the reason why I did not follow that series. I think WEC in 2017 will be better in 2016 because of strength in GT.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I've seen a lot of snickering and jokes about all the classes that were awarded at Sebring when the ALMS and ILMC had a combined race. I was wondering why that was a bad thing?

Was just wondering whether this really bothered anyone or if it was more just in jest. And, there's nothing to really talk about right now, lol.

I struggle to follow so many classes during a race. And I'm not a casual motorsports fan.

In 2018, IMSA will have protos, GTLM and GTD. That sound fine to me.

[Coach Ep]

And more DPi manufacturers than this year as well (whether you like it or not).

[kevlow]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I struggle to follow so many classes during a race. And I'm not a casual motorsports fan.

In 2018, IMSA will have protos, GTLM and GTD. That sound fine to me.

I like the three classes as well.
I would not mind there being a Pro-AM class trophy for the protos. There are Amateurs that will fund cars but not in the Pro/Pro class. The PCs were too far off in speed to be a good mix. I am not sure why because back in the Camel GT days the Camel Lites class mixed in fine.

[kevlow]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I would still love to see 8 ACO Approved Classes with the structure looking like this:

P1 - ACO P1
GTP^ - IMSA P
P2^* - ACO P2
P3^* - ACO P3

GT1 - ACO GTE
GT2* - ACO GTE
GT3^* - GT3 / IMSA GTD
GT4^* - GT4

^ = Performance Balanced
* = Pro/Am



With the series looking like this

24 Hours of Le Mans
P1
GTP
P2
GT1
GT2

WEC
P1
P2
GT1
GT2

IMSA - USCR
GTP
P2
GT1
GT3

IMSA - Conti
P3
GT4

ELMS - Main
GTP
P2
GT2

ELMS - Feeder
P3
GT4

Asian Le Mans Series
P2
P3
GT3
GT4

I like some of your groupings.

I definitely think that P3 belongs in something more then the 45 min races in the new PC class. The Conti would be a good place with the GT4 cars. ST is being killed off for TCR. Possibly this could be made to support it's own class in it's own race. Or, keep ST and race it with the slightly faster TCR in it's own race.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by kevlow

I like the three classes as well.
I would not mind there being a Pro-AM class trophy for the protos. There are Amateurs that will fund cars but not in the Pro/Pro class. The PCs were too far off in speed to be a good mix. I am not sure why because back in the Camel GT days the Camel Lites class mixed in fine.

Lites didn't make as much power/tq as an LMPC car.

[YZFrider]

It's been a while since I've posted and i wanted to discuss a topic not covered much. TV broadcasting. Someone confirm, but I believe Fox sports will not show the beginning of 12 hrs of Sebring??? What do you think? Has Fox sports been a disaster in broadening the appeal of IMSA WTSCC (no doubt the premier in North American Sportscar racing). Or is the product just not strong anymore to draw a decent tv package. When I say I miss the ALMS, one of the very reasons I do was that it was on more accessible stations. Heck back when it was strongest it was on the broadcast networks NBC/CBS competing against the likes of Golf, Horse racing, (not to mention Grand-am splitting eyes and sponsors) and it was STILL able to pull a million plus eyes (TV nielsen ratings). I have many thoughts as to why ratings are bad, some not the series fault, others perhaps are. How do we get the product out there? Where do we go when the FOX contract is up? Do we need TV broadcast? Are we content with having a professional sports car series pulling 0.6 on TV cable interspersed with streaming?

[Maelochs]

I think the reason no one watches the sport is that the broadcasts are horrible. No one would watch baseball if they stopped for a commercial after every three pitches.

[Rcz]

My IMSA class grouping would be similar

WTSC
GTP
GTLM
GTD

IMSA jr/Grand-AMish series
P3
Gt4

Conti
Gs-a combine group of Scca t1,t2 and Amercan sedan class cars
St

USTCC
TCR

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Has Fox sports been a disaster in broadening the appeal of IMSA WTSCC (no doubt the premier in North American Sportscar racing).

Or is the product just not strong anymore to draw a decent tv package

IMSA ratings on Fox Sports 1 other than Daytona have been pathetic.

2017 Daytona 24h start: 516 k
2016 Daytona 24h start: 430 k
2016 Detroit: 196 k
2016 Mosport: 151 k
2016 Watkins Glen: 145 k
2016 Long Beach: 116 k
2016 Virginia: 91 k
2016 Petit Le Mans start: 80 k
2016 Austin: 80 k
2016 Laguna Seca: 77 k
2016 Road America: 74 k

It's no surprise that IMSA is not a priority for Fox Sports.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

IMSA ratings on Fox Sports 1 other than Daytona have been pathetic.

2017 Daytona 24h start: 516 k
2016 Daytona 24h start: 430 k
2016 Detroit: 196 k
2016 Mosport: 151 k
2016 Watkins Glen: 145 k
2016 Long Beach: 116 k
2016 Virginia: 91 k
2016 Petit Le Mans start: 80 k
2016 Austin: 80 k
2016 Laguna Seca: 77 k
2016 Road America: 74 k

It's no surprise that IMSA is not a priority for Fox Sports.

Sportscar racing is too much of a niche sport. I don't know why. I think it should have mainstream appeal. But it does not. One thing you have to ask is why are there so many auto racing fans out there who are 100% loyal to NASCAR or Formula 1 who don't give a rip about sportscars. I see no appeal in those forms of racing myself.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

One thing you have to ask is why are there so many auto racing fans out there who are 100% loyal to sportscars who don't give a rip about NASCAR or Formula 1. I see no appeal in those forms of racing myself.

Say it that way and things seem a little clearer.

[seanyb505]

Same reason some people like twilight and some like Steinbeck.

-an book publishing insider

[MaskedRacer]

I noticed a trend in that in our big endurance races we have had significant delays at some point. The Daytona 24 this year had it due to rain. Then the Petit Le Mans 2015 before that for the torn up corner on the track. The 2016 Sebring 12 hours had red and yellow flag periods for weather too. Lets hope the 2017 Sebring 12 hours we can avoid any major delays.

[RWill2073]

2015 petit was the rainout, correct? Then 2016 was the track repair? Just adds another to your point.

I guess in retrospect, we were lucky from 2000-2012ish, as I don't remember much of that happening except the one petit, which was such a bit deal in my mind because of its rarity.

I'd like to see imsa get on nbcsn like f1 and IndyCar. Even if it means being moved to cnbc and other tied in channels when there's conflicts. The Fox broadcasts are so awful I end up watching on a computer monitor instead of my big screen to get streams instead.