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Old 25 Mar 2015, 03:50 (Ref:3519229)   #2176
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The look of the Vette DP is essentially a tweaked version of the P1-Evo Corvette render.


Except you know for P1-Evo actually being a car not just a body kit.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 04:00 (Ref:3519230)   #2177
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...which is exactly why I said the LOOK.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:11 (Ref:3519488)   #2178
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And lookie what shows up on Racer today:

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“I don’t see that happening, candidly,” he stated. “It’s not a random choice that we have decided, with complete agreement by the ACO and the FIA, to limit the constructors to four. And we have to be careful of definitions here. Constructors are who we’re looking at to actually build the prototype racecars. Manufacturers are those mainstream brands that we’re all familiar with that would put the drivetrain and potential bodywork on the cars.

“So back to the constructor discussion, we’re going to support the decision to limit those to four, with one – at least – one of those four being North American-based.”
http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11475...p2-regulations

Great work, Atherton and company. You've driven a few more nails into your series' coffin.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:41 (Ref:3519499)   #2179
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And lookie what shows up on Racer today:



http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11475...p2-regulations

Great work, Atherton and company. You've driven a few more nails into your series' coffin.
Chevy, Ford, BMW and Mazda already do this. That leaves Ligier and Honda as the other participants on the grid in TUSC so far this year with Oreca on the way. So the only casualty will be the ARX chassis as there is Honda power in the full season Ligier of Shank. It will probably be a consortium of US mfgs who build the complete US ACO compliant chassis, but I would guarantee it will be able to bolt in all of the aforementioned Marques engines, as well as the other chassis' also being able to bolt in other drive trains beside the ACO spec unit. But then I guess to some that means that IMSA has decimated it's own ranks. Seems not that all far removed from what is on the grid now other than it would seem they will all be using a CF based chassis, go figure.








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Old 25 Mar 2015, 21:01 (Ref:3519511)   #2180
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I heard Multimatic was the North American firm, along with Dallara, Oreca, and Oak.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 21:16 (Ref:3519517)   #2181
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But they haven't started the tendering process yet
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 22:33 (Ref:3519550)   #2182
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I heard Multimatic was the North American firm, along with Dallara, Oreca, and Oak.
And screw Riley, Coyote and HPD? Not to mention Gibson? Yeah, that's a real good idea....
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:16 (Ref:3519571)   #2183
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And screw Riley, Coyote and HPD? Not to mention Gibson? Yeah, that's a real good idea....
To start off, I am not in favor of this. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try to understand it.

First off, the market the FIA is considering is Not TUSC. They are looking at attracting more P2 teams (Pro-Am) to WEC to suck money out of rich racer-wannabes. Most of that market is likely to go to Oak or Oreca because those are trusted names in sports cars (and will probably give sweet deals to teams which stay with them.).

Gibson (Zytek) hasn't had more than two cars on the grid in several years, and it was never the "hot" chassis. In fact the company has been dormant for a long while. Pretty sure the FIA isn't worried about Gibson.

Riley? No Rileys in Europe. Maybe half a dozen in TUSC, but how many full-time? And with Ganassi going to the Ford GT program, that's one less customer (two chassis.) Starworks has a pair but often it seems cannot afford to run them. No one is counting on them as customers, I figure—and the rest are all Rolex-24-only.

I'd say Honda, with Zero P2 cars on the grid in any series after Spa, is not a factor at all.

HPD had a real hard time funding its new P2, and couldn't sell it even before people knew it didn't work. And Honda has no interest in running an HPD-VW or whatever. Or in building a spec engine that isn't in some way relevant to its current programs—no badged spec V8s for HPD. No HPD in future P2 under current rules.

Coyote? The two AXRs—and isn't AXR owned by NASCAR or a NASCAR player? And Visit Florida, which used to be Spirit of Daytona and was rumored to be one of the most highly NASCAR funded teams. They are going to go wherever the money suggests.

Besides those three cars, what business did Coyote have in P2/DP? How much leverage does it have? And has Coyote Ever built a CF tub?

Dallara has built tubs for everyone from Audi to GP2 and GP3 to IndyCar for a decade. It's got a big budget and big facilities and can probably crank out the needed chassis easily, whereas Coyote? Is it even set up for CF? How much would Coyote have to invest for a chance to build half-a-dozen chassis over four years? what's the RoI?

Oreca and Oak are P2 staples ... hard to argue they shouldn't be included. Dallara because it has the stability and the money; Oreca and Oak, all that plus an existing customer base.

HPD couldn't afford to build the 04b on time, or to make it work. Gibson (Zytek) is just coming back from limbo. Coyote is small and unknown in Europe. Can't blame FIA for picking the strongest businesses.

Multimatic can possibly market as "Lola" (the whores) and is probably selling itself as the constructor with the greatest stability and ability with CF (old Lola staff and stuff.)

The way articles keep mentioning a "North American" constructor instead of 'U.S." makes me think it really is Multimatic, a Canadian firm.

All just rumors until there is an official release anyway.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:17 (Ref:3519572)   #2184
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And lookie what shows up on Racer today:



http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11475...p2-regulations

Great work, Atherton and company. You've driven a few more nails into your series' coffin.
So basically they will be keeping DPs around but with a carbon chassis and just calling the P2s.

Awesome #thefuture
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:28 (Ref:3519576)   #2185
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So basically they will be keeping DPs around but with a carbon chassis and just calling the P2s.

Awesome #thefuture
Even so, it's still miles better than the ROW contingent, which is 4 chassis, one engine, and I presume only two specifications for bodywork per constructor with zero in-season development.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:43 (Ref:3519580)   #2186
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Even so, it's still miles better than the ROW contingent, which is 4 chassis, one engine, and I presume only two specifications for bodywork per constructor with zero in-season development.
Well, Inches better, let's not exaggerate.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:50 (Ref:3519583)   #2187
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Even so, it's still miles better than the ROW contingent, which is 4 chassis, one engine, and I presume only two specifications for bodywork per constructor with zero in-season development.
Pick your poison...

FIA-ACO P2
4 chassis limitation
Spec component elements
Spec tire
Spec engine
2 likely bodywork options - for aero
Fake rebranding themes
No development
No actual BoP (if current model followed)
Worldwide accessability

IMSA-NASCAR P2
4 chassis limitation
Spec component elements
Spec tire
Free engine
X bodywork options - primarly for 'styling cues'
Fake rebranding themes
Development allowed likely (+ to be adjusted in IMSA wind tunnel)
Usage of results based BoP (if current model followed)
If not in harmony with FIA-ACO specs no access to anywhere else except one race

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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:59 (Ref:3519586)   #2188
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Yep, the imsa option looks much better, imo.

Plus it's not like any of the teams would want to do races outside of Le Mans, we've got years of that to go off of. A select few would maybe actually do Le Mans, but history says most won't.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 00:07 (Ref:3519591)   #2189
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I am reminded that IMSA started with Camel GT, AAGT, then GTP ... which weren't all welcome everywhere, but sure worked.

I doubt the current management has the desire or the cojones to do another GTP-like spec---something so much better than everything else, everyone adopts or adapts it---but that is what I have to hope for.

All during the ALMS days fans argued whether Dr. Panoz should embrace or ditch the French. Eventually he had to, because all the Euro teams left ... but imagine if ALMS had split in 2006 or 2008? Kept P2 and P1 equal in performance (or rather, let them be.)

Anyway ... Unless the cars are 100 % identical on both sides of the pond, all this talk about "eligible in all series" is crap.

If tires are different in WEC, then all a team's set-ups are garbage if they send the same car across. If one series has a different weight, then all suspensions set-ups and even maybe ECU settings would be different on each side.

Excpet for GTLM/GTE, who really much crosses anyway? And as i recall Corvette racing went over one year and got last-year's Michelins or something and couldn't compete.

How many prototype teams have tried to do le mans? and I already know how many tried to do other WEC races plus North American races with the same chassis--a total of Zero.

How many Euro teams came to the U.S.? Outside of Sebring and Petit, .... rebellion, but they pulled out. And P2 teams from WEC which wanted to run TUSC could if they wanted .... They could have this year if they wanted.

As it stands, with common tubs, it would be as easy for a TUSC team to go to WEC as it ever has been. But I am not sure that is even relevant. I didn't see any.

The whole reason for a common spec really isn't so teams can cross over, it is so constructors can afford to make a living by increasing the market--and if the common tub is adopted, that will have been achieved.

Whether the finished priooduct has a spec engine or a Chevy V8, the constructors will get the economy of scale which will make their businesses healthier--which could mean a Lot when some of the P1 factories decide to take their major money elsewhere (as they always seem to do.)

I want a common spec across the ocean and around the world, but not a Spec spec. If TUSC is forced to run crap cars (worse than now, even) then I do hope they set up their own regs.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 00:17 (Ref:3519593)   #2190
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Even so, it's still miles better than the ROW contingent, which is 4 chassis, one engine, and I presume only two specifications for bodywork per constructor with zero in-season development.
Yeah but the WEC isn't pushing P2 as a top class it's basically a field filler. P1 is the attraction where Imsa only has these as the top crap.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 00:23 (Ref:3519596)   #2191
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I am reminded that IMSA started with Camel GT, AAGT, then GTP ... which weren't all welcome everywhere, but sure worked.
Don't be fooled that IMSA is dead what we have now is Grand-Am and when they go their own way it's disastrous.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 00:30 (Ref:3519598)   #2192
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Yep, the imsa option looks much better, imo.

Plus it's not like any of the teams would want to do races outside of Le Mans, we've got years of that to go off of. A select few would maybe actually do Le Mans, but history says most won't.
I agree the IMSA option looks better, but they are both a little less than inspiring.
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Don't be fooled that IMSA is dead what we have now is Grand-Am and when they go their own way it's disastrous.
So would you rather have IMSA follow the aco's more restrictive lead?
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 00:37 (Ref:3519600)   #2193
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I agree the IMSA option looks better, but they are both a little less than inspiring.

So would you rather have IMSA follow the aco's more restrictive lead?
I would have rather them just follow the ALMS path a allow the real prototypes not these dumbed down p2 cars.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 01:07 (Ref:3519609)   #2194
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I would have rather them just follow the ALMS path a allow the real prototypes not these dumbed down p2 cars.
The ALMS path led to near bankruptcy and a sell-out to NASCAR.

ALMS was struggling hard after 2009. Not enough money for promotion, not enough money for the teams, not enough money for the series to keep going, ultimately.

I want full FIA sports car racing here. I just don't see how it makes financial sense.

Let us keep in mind that ALMS always "allowed" P1. Thing is Muscle Milk was the only real P1 car on the grid, with Dyson occasionally chasing, several laps back.

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Old 26 Mar 2015, 01:11 (Ref:3519611)   #2195
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Tell Jim France and Scott Atherton to change LMP1-L in order to make it cheaper to run then!
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 01:17 (Ref:3519613)   #2196
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Dyson never had that engine going well. ALMS got hit hard just like every other business post 2008. Who knows what will work in the future, but most dont like the way its headed.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 01:21 (Ref:3519614)   #2197
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Yeah but the WEC isn't pushing P2 as a top class it's basically a field filler. P1 is the attraction where Imsa only has these as the top crap.
More series will have P2 as the top class than P1.

ELMS and AsLMS week both have the super spec P2 as their top class.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 01:45 (Ref:3519618)   #2198
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More series will have P2 as the top class than P1.

ELMS and AsLMS week both have the super spec P2 as their top class.
That's sort of like saying it's fine if you get Ebola because a lot of people have Ebola.

People know that AsLMS and ELMS are second-tier feeder series which can barely fill their schedules or their grids--the series where racers go until they can get it together to move up to the big time.

Clearly none of us want TUSC to be a second-rate feeder series. We want it to rival WEC, not be subjugated to WEC. Implying that its okay if TUSC uses a lame spec top class because there are other lame things in the world is not sound logically nor satisfying emotionally to fans, and likely will not be profitable financially.

After all ALMS went broke, but so did Rolex. In fact, without NASCAR paying the bills, Rolex wouldn't have lasted halfway through the decade.

In a "Cars are the Stars" world, saying the cars are as good as any aging, washed-up, no-talent B-movie extras in any other film market is saying exactly what's up. And it is very ugly.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 02:05 (Ref:3519622)   #2199
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Tell Jim France and Scott Atherton to change LMP1-L in order to make it cheaper to run then!
Hahahaha. No, not happening, because that would hurt the bottom lines of the chosen ones, too.

Best solution at this point is honestly for IMSA to tell the ACO where to get off, same as I thought when these moronic rules came out a month ago. They still can and should. Screwing Riley and the massive Ford vs. Chevrolet battle that is coming to GTLM should be enough for Riley to focus its efforts on the GTLM Vipers and return them to competition for 2016, so that when the P2 rules fail that IMSA can simply write it off and focus everyone's attention on the GTLM slugfest that is very likely to be coming in the near future, with them just trying to get Corvette Racing to supply customer cars to Taylor, Spirit of Daytona and Action Express and Ford to supply customer GT40s to Shank and Starworks. Combine that with Riley-run Vipers, Falken's Porsche 911 RSR and the PC guys moving into the next-cheapest class (GTD, which becomes GT3 in 2016 anyways), you can write off the LMP mistakes with not only still having a series, but probably having a better one as a result, though I suspect the fact that the privateer teams will have little hope against the factory juggernauts will cause grumbles. But then again, whoever is serious about it could just as easily use their privateer teams as B-Teams to improve their odds of winning....
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 02:53 (Ref:3519634)   #2200
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Hahahaha. No, not happening, because that would hurt the bottom lines of the chosen ones, too.

Best solution at this point is honestly for IMSA to tell the ACO where to get off, same as I thought when these moronic rules came out a month ago. They still can and should. Screwing Riley and the massive Ford vs. Chevrolet battle that is coming to GTLM should be enough for Riley to focus its efforts on the GTLM Vipers and return them to competition for 2016, so that when the P2 rules fail that IMSA can simply write it off and focus everyone's attention on the GTLM slugfest that is very likely to be coming in the near future, with them just trying to get Corvette Racing to supply customer cars to Taylor, Spirit of Daytona and Action Express and Ford to supply customer GT40s to Shank and Starworks. Combine that with Riley-run Vipers, Falken's Porsche 911 RSR and the PC guys moving into the next-cheapest class (GTD, which becomes GT3 in 2016 anyways), you can write off the LMP mistakes with not only still having a series, but probably having a better one as a result, though I suspect the fact that the privateer teams will have little hope against the factory juggernauts will cause grumbles. But then again, whoever is serious about it could just as easily use their privateer teams as B-Teams to improve their odds of winning....
That's what I've wanted from the beginning, if we can't have P1 or something as exciting the top class then just get rid of the prototypes altogether, factory Ford GTs vs Corvettes going for the overall win at Sebring, PLM and Daytona would be amazing, not to mention that making them GT races would very likely cause massive interest from GT teams worlwide, including the works GTE teams from the WEC.
IMO much better than whats going to happen.

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though I suspect the fact that the privateer teams will have little hope against the factory juggernauts will cause grumbles.
That's what happens in LMP1 where you need spaceship technology and F1 sized budgets, IMO GT racing is nowhere near that in terms of cost and technical complexity, I think good privateers can still be competitive, we've seen the likes of Falken beat the factory teams after all.
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