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30 Mar 2013, 17:15 (Ref:3226967) | #26 | ||
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30 Mar 2013, 17:23 (Ref:3226970) | #27 | ||
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Not even close...Team orders are given for a reason, by the team of which the driver is *one* member contracted to drive the car in a manner that is agreeable with the team, which is why there are team bosses !
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30 Mar 2013, 22:24 (Ref:3227051) | #28 | |
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So why promote betting on a sport that can be manipulated rather than just play out......
I don't bet by the way, Just found this aspect interesting. |
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30 Mar 2013, 23:31 (Ref:3227069) | #29 | ||
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Every race is rigged. Tell the people.
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30 Mar 2013, 23:41 (Ref:3227070) | #30 | ||
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"Rigged" is fixing the result through secretive and forbidden practices. The teams are upfront about team orders and the governing body says they are legal thus the races are not "rigged".
"Rigged" would occur if there was a blanket ban on team orders and thus if an unlucky number two performed a sneaky switcheroo and then claimed "gearbox problem" as an excuse with a twinkle in the eye and a wry smile; that would be rigged. Bookies would adjust the odds on all the known number twos accordingly. You could still could make a left field bet on a no.2 and then if in the race he was trapped at the front and the no.1 was way behind or else a team might just decide not to issue team orders on that occasion...et al |
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
30 Mar 2013, 23:52 (Ref:3227072) | #31 | ||
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31 Mar 2013, 00:18 (Ref:3227080) | #32 | ||
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31 Mar 2013, 01:07 (Ref:3227089) | #33 | ||
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fixed, altered, slanted, changed, not as intended, to cheat.
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Everyone knows blue cars are the fastest. |
31 Mar 2013, 07:33 (Ref:3227134) | #34 | ||
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And that definition is from where?
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44 days... |
31 Mar 2013, 08:05 (Ref:3227143) | #35 | ||
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Ah, the useage of language.
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
31 Mar 2013, 11:28 (Ref:3227193) | #36 | ||
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Quote:
A race is a contest of speed. A contest is a struggle for victory. To struggle is to contend with an adversary. When those 'struggling' are instructed not to, we don't have a contest and we don't have a race. The outcome is no longer unpredictable. It has been manipulated... but it hasn't manipulated fraudulently. |
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31 Mar 2013, 13:02 (Ref:3227217) | #37 | ||
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You see - we can agree on something......!
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1 Apr 2013, 20:11 (Ref:3227713) | #38 | |
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I'm an English teacher and this has turned into something of a semantic debate. I think there are strong feelings on the side of the critics regarding the alteration of a race result that team orders entail. I'm not a huge fan of them as I've said in other discussions, but I think you have to see that the structure of motorsport has long included this sort of thing and it is a long way from the kind of fixing that has been referred to in other sports.
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2 Apr 2013, 09:05 (Ref:3227888) | #39 | ||
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Preservation of advantage gained does not relate to 'rigging' a result.... |
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2 Apr 2013, 10:21 (Ref:3227910) | #40 | ||
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I think some of us are learning that F1 is a team sport first and foremost and a drivers championship second of all.
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
2 Apr 2013, 10:35 (Ref:3227920) | #41 | ||
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Quote:
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2 Apr 2013, 11:46 (Ref:3227946) | #42 | |||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
2 Apr 2013, 11:53 (Ref:3227951) | #43 | ||
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Well maybe those people should question whether the WDC truly is the blue ribband?
Actually, I happily accept that it is and historically always has been, borne out of the popular admiration of drivers as latter day knights, risking all for fame, fortune, glamour and girls. If we accept that, then why can we not accept that motorsport is a team sport with an individual objective, and as such it is perfectly legitimate for the team to favour their best chance of victory. Here's a question. Are any of those who dislike team orders in F1 fans of cycling? |
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2 Apr 2013, 12:12 (Ref:3227978) | #44 | |||
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Hockey, nba, nfl etc etc More so the winners of these awards usually end up commanding much larger salaries, sell more sneakers and generally are regarded as better. You think they all put team success over personal glory? You don't think their team mates make sacrifices to have them on their team? How is it different. |
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2 Apr 2013, 12:20 (Ref:3227981) | #45 | |||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
2 Apr 2013, 13:14 (Ref:3228003) | #46 | |||
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but even if F1 is different, and to some degree i do agree, how is that relevant? if anything it makes team orders to place emphasis on winning the WDC more understandable not less. |
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2 Apr 2013, 13:49 (Ref:3228023) | #47 | ||
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F1 seems to be a team sport with team orders but with the teams championship being a secondary issue [??????].
I picked to a funny old sport to take an interest in. |
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
2 Apr 2013, 13:50 (Ref:3228024) | #48 | |||
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You just pointed out the relevance, in that it places the emphasis on team orders on winning the WDC more understandable. |
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2 Apr 2013, 14:25 (Ref:3228037) | #49 | ||||
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maybe im missing something but i though you (and others against team orders) were saying that team orders are not understandable under any circumstance because cheating is anathema to sports competition. if the drivers title is so important (because F1 is different than any other individual title/award/trophy in other team sports) shouldn't you guys be more accepting of team orders. im guessing i should just go back and reread this thread in greater detail as this has probably already been answered. |
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2 Apr 2013, 14:30 (Ref:3228040) | #50 | |
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Sports like hockey, soccer, rugby etc... are not good examples to parallel with F1 because there is no individual objective. There is only a team objective.
A better parallel might be swimming. My son is a member of a swimming squad [team ?] and they field a couple of dozen or so swimmers at a meet. There are points given to each swimmer depending on their finishing position in a race... and they also accrue points for their squad. At the end of the meet, there's a championship order for the swimmers, and one for the squads. Some swimmers from the same squad are up against each other in the same race. In those situations, it's each swimmer for himself or herself. In considering the parallel to F1, would the head coach [team manager ?] ever ask a swimmer to give way to another in order to allow his/her preferred choice to win gold rather than silver [if they were 1-2 at the time] ? Can you imagine such a scenario at Olympic level ? |
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