BAR banned for two races /FIA further warnings (merged again)

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by esorniloc

Is Button banned?

Could he theoretically race for another team in the two races?

theoretically I think so. but no team will hire a driver for only 2 races (well, no team Button or Sato would be happy to drive for). and I don't think BAR would allow that

[alfaman]

I think they've kicked BAR where it hurts...Banning them from the most prestigious race of the year.

Every sponsor LOVES going to Monaco and there are going to be some seriously p----d off sponsors who'll now miss Monte Carlo because 'their' team was caught cheating.

Despite the rules I think a season long ban was out of the question and this was one way to teach the BAR boys a lesson.

The only ones I feel sorry are Jenson, Takuma and the fans.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

But if BAR could run longer stints and underweight due to this illegal design, think back to Imola the 2 laps that Button held Michael up before his last pit. In effect, BAR's cheat cost Michael the race win!... Ouch.

As Boots said those two laps made little difference to Michael's pursuit of Alonso. Michael overtook Button two and a half laps before Button pitted - which is over the difference in the fuel. I'm not saying it is unrelated, but it isn't that much of a difference.

Originally Posted by f1_carzy

Thats one way to look at it. In retrospect, with all these revelations, I tend to agree with Gt_R; if Michael had got off Button 2 laps earlier than he did, he would have won at Imola; after all Alonso passed him by a whisker at the pistop exit.

Was still on track for another two and half laps though so it makes little difference. Michael got past because Button got mixed up with some backmarkers. Why would this have happened two laps earlier? Michael's only other chance to pass was the stops, but he overtook Button 2 1/2 laps before Button stopped (more than 2 laps). Or course Button qualified third and maybe the car helped this and there is his pace in the race which may have been approved. So, yes it may have effected the race winner, however I don't think you can specifically pin it down to those two laps.

[Gt_R]

Wow..don't take it too seriously. It's not as if i'm crying foul or have the results overturned. Just snippets for thoughts. All this would not have been in discussion if Michael started at the sharp end of the grid.

The good thing is that FIA sent a straight and clear signal to all teams. Cheating is not tolerated, and legality of the car should not be compromised. Hopefully, teams would better use their rights to consult the FIA if they are unsure, and not take the rules into their own interpretation.

If anything, i believe it's about time FIA is strict. They have been rather tolerant in recent times with how teams push the loopholes or grey areas, even blatantly break 'understood rules' and argue a different interpretation from the written agreement. To say FIA is doing it for political is simply wrong. A side story would be BAR/Renault being asked to redesign their rear wing mainplates after it is found to flex more than approx 3 times the 5mm tolerant limit, which would enable lesser drag yet higher downforce. FIA didn't make a fuss, merely informing the teams to change, and introducing stricter tests. If it's political, FIA can easily play the situation out.

[hamsmith]

A few points to make:
Do people really think Michael would of passed Button earlier if the bar weighed a little more?
Everone is talking about the team cheating. I'm not a fan and was holding out for the Sam Marino results to be disquallified but i hardly think they out right cheated. They had never hid the second fuel tank and i don't believe they tried to conceal the fact they had left 5 kilos of fuel on board after emptying the car. All they are guilty of is being a little too creative with the interpretation of the rules, just like every other team and partner in F1.
I thought the FIA were taking the the allegations too far. Has BAR had a run in with Bernie lately? Surely they didn't really think any team would be a stupid to out right cheat?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Wow..don't take it too seriously. It's not as if i'm crying foul or have the results overturned. Just snippets for thoughts.

I'm not, they were just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Gt_R

All this would not have been in discussion if Michael started at the sharp end of the grid.

Agreed. I apologise too as we are wondering too.

Originally Posted by Gt_R

The good thing is that FIA sent a straight and clear signal to all teams. Cheating is not tolerated, and legality of the car should not be compromised. Hopefully, teams would better use their rights to consult the FIA if they are unsure, and not take the rules into their own interpretation.

If anything, i believe it's about time FIA is strict.

I agree. Although I would say that this situation did differ to other grey areas (for want of a better phrase). Some grey areas are ones that are met for the first time. Others, in the BAR case, have been discussed and settled before.

[Marbot]

BAR reacts to ruling http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=24320

Other stories on same website say they intend to run in Spain!

[Adam43]

I think that they are best advised to take it on the chin. Still, I await their choice of options.

[F1n]

the whole deal is quite bizzare really!! a secret tank supposedly to ensure that the engine always has a minimum supply that wasn't drained when the rest was..........sounds a bit crooked!!

In my oppinion that was a deliberate attempt to break the rules. Whether Button knew it i cant tell, although i dont imagine he would have, seeing as he wanted to leave last year i cant imagine him agreeing to keep shtum about a rule breaking attempt!!!

BAR are extremel lucky to be allowed to continue this year. There is precedence to eclude them!!! anyone remember Jerez 1997? Schumacher's deliberate attempt to shunt Villeneuve earned him disqualification from the championship.

Naughty HONDA! Yume No Chikara my ASS

[Adam43]

It isn't worth getting into the specifics of Jerez '97, but IMHO this two race ban (and a DSQ from a third race) is far worse than the loss of points (but keeping the results) for a whole year.

[Marbot]

More BAR anger at www.grandprix.com and www.itv-f1.com

[F1n]

Just thought of a valid argument though........what about Malaysia 1999 Ferrari's illegal bargeboard infringment, Do you think that could be a similar situation

The barge board was too big but it was claimed it made no difference to performance...... why was it designed to big then?

Everyone who has been involved in racing at club level or higher have read "the blue book" of regs and specs so everyone knows the rules!!! So when u build an F1 car you will make sure every detail conforms to these specifications u dont just build it and then see!!!!

so why did Ferrari have thier suspension overruled??? why because we all wanted to see a championship finale!!!!!

So maybe BAR have very god grounds for appeal, surely otherwise that is Blatent favouritism towards ferrari !!

Will this also speed up the GP racing break away league???

[Adam43]

We have been here a million times (as you are new you won't have tired of it yet ). The situations are different, so no comparison can be made.

One was a dimension, the other a mass. One was performance enhancing, the other may not have been. One was possibly intentional and the other was probably an oversight.

Let us stick to BAR. There is no precendent case to argue here.

The case to answer here is, and has been in the FIA court, was the BAR legal? The answer was No.

[Kirk]

I very much doubt we have heard the end of this, relating to past performances and points scored etc.? Supposed that BAR had had the extra fuel tank in 2004. Would the BAR schematics reveal when this extra fuel tank was implemented? Will the other teams (namely Renault, who lost out to BAR) raise a stink about BAR cheating all of last year?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I very much doubt we have heard the end of this, relating to past performances and points scored etc.? Supposed that BAR had had the extra fuel tank in 2004. Would the BAR schematics reveal when this extra fuel tank was implemented? Will the other teams (namely Renault, who lost out to BAR) raise a stink about BAR cheating all of last year?

I'm sure that the BAR 006 was checked at various stages throughout the 2004 season, so i very much doubt that the car was in anyway illegal. However, that said, even if it was found illegal now, i doubt very much that other teams "raising a stink" alter the outcome of anything down in the 2004 season.

[Kirk]

My understanding was that BAR only got caught because it was the first time they had drained the car of all it's fuel. As long as the car has been running with that configuration, the potential for cheating existed. It makes last years sudden success a tad tainted under these circumstances.

[Adam43]

Not really kirk. BAR were relatively nowhere this year and they did have the system. It was tested and they were found guilty at Imola 2005. You can't accuse pre-that. Well you can, but you can't say either way. Maybe they did have in 2004, maybe they did have it in 1999 (and they thought it was the key to winning their first race).

That is also finished now. As Moore says in the Rugby commentator, it doesn't matter now the ref has given it (or not).

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kirk

It makes last years sudden success a tad tainted under these circumstances.

Strange comment coming from a Villeneuve fan

[Kirk]

You're probably right Adam. BAR seem to be taking the approach "good offence is the best defence" at the moment but I think we'll them take their medicine and move on.

[Adam43]

I agree that they should "take their medicine and move on". Otherwise we may get into a "bringing the sport into disrepute"!

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by alfaman

I think they've kicked BAR where it hurts...Banning them from the most prestigious race of the year.

Every sponsor LOVES going to Monaco and there are going to be some seriously p----d off sponsors who'll now miss Monte Carlo because 'their' team was caught cheating.

Despite the rules I think a season long ban was out of the question and this was one way to teach the BAR boys a lesson.

The only ones I feel sorry are Jenson, Takuma and the fans.

....and also kicks the fans where it hurts! Only 9 teams now and two of the quickest 10 out of it for 2 races. Why don't they look more closely, find something wrong with every team, which they surely could, and ban them all! They would get the cost saving they are looking for and it would only be slightly less interesting to watch..............

[Adam43]

We can't have the attitude of letting people off because it leaves two empty spaces. People wouldn't stand for that either.

In addition, there may or may not be anything wrong with the other cars on the grid, but none of them have anything as blatant as running a car underweight. That is ignoring the fact that no one else is under suspicion.

[Sodemo]

Whats interesting is that when the FIA were asked in court, "are there any other teams in F1 with a similar fuel system to that of BAR" they stated "no comment"...

By that I assume they have found more...?!?

[Boro]

Guess we'll see JB in a different car next year.

No way in hell will he be able to rack up 75% of the champ's points by season's end if he can't score points until round 7 now with this verdict.

[gttouring]

jeepers eh?
why would BAR even want to finish the season? can they rescue third spot constructors?
and with 2 cars off the grid...does that mean someone will have to place a few extra cars to make up the numbers? or is BAR officially still on grid but a temporary ban is enough to avoid this rule of not enough cars?