Alonso penalised! (merged) - Page 3

ralf fan · 9 Sep 2006, 20:46 (Ref:1706140)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bezzen

http://www.kolumbus.fi/johnny/Monza06_Q3_Massa.avi

The "incident" in question.

Are you sure this is the incident (i think it may not be)? because if it is then this is the most ludacrious decision in years.....

racingdad · 9 Sep 2006, 20:59 (Ref:1706144)

I have just rewatched the whole lap on video. as a former clerk of the course in normal racing, I can see nothing wrong with Alonso's position on the track - he did not impede Massa at all, probably gave him a bit of a tow, in fact. I know the boys all want MS to win one more championship, bit this is another nail in F1 cofin for me

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 21:29 (Ref:1706156)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racingdad

I have just rewatched the whole lap on video. as a former clerk of the course in normal racing, I can see nothing wrong with Alonso's position on the track - he did not impede Massa at all, probably gave him a bit of a tow, in fact. I know the boys all want MS to win one more championship, bit this is another nail in F1 cofin for me

Know what.. I think you make a very good point. Perhaps Alonso being in front did help Massa in the third sector and *improved* his laptime by a fraction.

I mean, I have watched the lap like 25 times... the more I see it, the more I hate FIA. This is sport at its lowest.

ensign14 · 9 Sep 2006, 21:36 (Ref:1706160)

The exact decision states that the stewards found that Alonso was "on his out-lap and, having been caught by Felipe Massa, did impede him".

Now, I may be being a bit naif here, but I cannot for the life of me in any possible plausible inference of the Mother Tongue find anything that could possibly be construed as Alonso "having been caught".

I must therefore have severe doubts about either the competence or the integrity of the stewards who could possibly have come to this conclusion. Massa is barely within the same time zone.

I had been thinking of boycotting the "race" tomorrow. However I think I will watch it to see how they fix it.

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 21:41 (Ref:1706166)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign14

I had been thinking of boycotting the "race" tomorrow. However I think I will watch it to see how they fix it.

Expect MS to 'duel'? with Kimi as Massa protects his back. Its MS 1, Massa 2, Kimi 3. MS announces retirement/wins race/closes gap to Alonso, Kimi into Ferrari and Monza podium, Tifosa go crazy.. FIA mints money. Its all good

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 21:45 (Ref:1706170)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign14

I had been thinking of boycotting the "race" tomorrow. However I think I will watch it to see how they fix it.

How will you ever stop this blatent rigging of races if you don't boycott the race?

JeremySmith · 9 Sep 2006, 21:47 (Ref:1706173)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

How will you ever stop this blatent rigging of races if you don't boycott the race?

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 21:50 (Ref:1706176)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

How will you ever stop this blatent rigging of races if you don't boycott the race?

I can see the sarcastic humor but do you really think the penalty was justified? I know you think banning of mass dampers was fine and that Michael doing all his stupid manouvers with PDR at Hungary were OK? Perhaps you are a MS fan so one can understand.

But does it matter if a player (in any sport) loses a title/sporting event due to the potential impact of an umpiring/refree decision?

Alpha Charlie 6 · 9 Sep 2006, 21:55 (Ref:1706177)

Forget it Schumie/Ferrari bashers ...Alonso is showing his true colours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JeremySmith · 9 Sep 2006, 21:56 (Ref:1706178)

No offence intended on my behalf Freud. I just don't subscribe to the idea of deliberate race fixing. I have not seen the piece of footage since Q I just can not remember Alonso doing anything to impede Massa?

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 22:00 (Ref:1706181)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

Perhaps you are a MS fan so one can understand.

Well it was sarcastic humour, but it made the point about over reastion to the point of seeing the worse. TGF fan, me? he he. No BTW, but that is irrelevant. I discuss without fan bias.

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 22:00 (Ref:1706182)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

No offence intended on my behalf Freud. I just don't subscribe to the idea of deliberate race fixing. I have not seen the piece of footage since Q I just can not remember Alonso doing anything to impede Massa?

Its not race fixing.. its an attempt to favor one competitor over another. And there is a consistent pattern to this.

Remind me of one FIA penalty/ruling against Ferrari/MS that actually lead to one of them losing a title. I know many people cant see through it but the law of probability has failed so many times when it comes to FIA rulings that one has to assume something at the FIA really stinks.

Alpha Charlie 6 · 9 Sep 2006, 22:02 (Ref:1706184)

Ensign 14 staes that Massa is never within a second of Alonso.....What happened in Turkey.....or did 14 not notice that?????????????

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 22:02 (Ref:1706185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

Remind me of one FIA penalty/ruling against Ferrari/MS that actually lead to one of them losing a title.

The penalties are surely handed out on the crime not on what impact they might have. You are suggesting that they should have one for the purpose of losing someone a title - that is fixing the result.

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 22:05 (Ref:1706187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha Charlie 6

Ensign 14 staes that Massa is never within a second of Alonso.....What happened in Turkey.....or did 14 not notice that?????????????

I think the current topic is about qualifying at the Italian GP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha Charlie 6

Forget it Schumie/Ferrari bashers ...Alonso is showing his true colours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6, this is surely as close to Alonso bashing as the other is Schumacher bashing. Two wrongs don't make a right and it isn't 10-10ths style.

rallycrosscraig · 9 Sep 2006, 22:05 (Ref:1706188)

watched it live on TV and think this is blatant attempt to help MS win the championship - Italian GP, Italian rules?

Hope Alonso does well regardless of this penalty, not sure if can be bothered to watch it now.

Bit like when Mini's were excluded from results of that 60's Monte Carlo Rally, French decision on a French rally...

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 22:06 (Ref:1706189)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

The penalties are surely handed out on the crime not on what impact they might have. You are suggesting that they should have one for the purpose of losing someone a title - that is fixing the result.

Semantically, yes. Methodically, not.

C'mmon. I mean lets face it. Do you really think, considering all the circumstances and the stage of the season when title is to be decided in next four races, that this penalty is justified?

Inigo Montoya · 9 Sep 2006, 22:10 (Ref:1706191)

The penalty was justified if the telemetry shows he had to lift. Sometimes... we all have to admit that maybe those in charge know a bit more than us. Lets wait and see for further clarification.

ensign14 · 9 Sep 2006, 22:13 (Ref:1706194)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

The penalty was justified if the telemetry shows he had to lift.

Pat Symonds:

Quote:

"I looked at Ferrari's telemetry, and [Massa] gained time on the back straight and was quicker into Parabolica than before. He lifted in the middle of the corner. To me, it looked like a mistake but he claimed he was losing downforce."

So Massa lifted because he ran out of talent, according to Renault - a biased source of course...but that's at least one explanation of why lifting would be nothing to do with Alonso.

If Alonso blocked Massa, then everyone blocked everyone in qualifying. They were no way close.

Inigo Montoya · 9 Sep 2006, 22:15 (Ref:1706196)

Well at least that is one side of the story based on something other than looking at video.

freud · 9 Sep 2006, 22:16 (Ref:1706198)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

The penalty was justified if the telemetry shows he had to lift. Sometimes... we all have to admit that maybe those in charge know a bit more than us. Lets wait and see for further clarification.

Inigo, your signature says it all

I am sure you will be happier if Ferrari finishes one-two.

Did Massa lift at the 350 KPH straight past parabolica? I would seriously doubt it. And even if he did it doesnt prove that Alonso blocked him because for BLOCKING to happen, Alonso also has to lift off from his throttle as well. Perhaps Alonso has to brake at the 350 KPH straight right in front of those huge grandstands so that he could give ferrari and massa a run for their money.

Got it?

Inigo Montoya · 9 Sep 2006, 22:17 (Ref:1706199)

Freud, before you accuse me of anything, you should realize that there is more to life than F1. Perhaps there was some other major sporting event recently that Italians did quite well in?

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 22:19 (Ref:1706201)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

Do you really think, considering all the circumstances and the stage of the season when title is to be decided in next four races, that this penalty is justified?

The penalty should, surely, have no relevance to the position of the championship. That is my point and, I suspect and hope, yours too.

However most discussion here is based on how it effects the championship not the incident. And my opinion needs to be assessed on whether I am a Michael fan or not. That too is irrelevant and if we are going from that starting point there is nothing to be gained.

Perhaps this is a long way of saying I'm going to watch it again before commenting. Is offering an opinion worthwhile, I'll just get dismissed as a FA or MS fan depending on viewpoint.

**Adam43** · 9 Sep 2006, 22:20 (Ref:1706204)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

Inigo, your signature says it all

I am sure you will be happier if Ferrari finishes one-two.

And your sig? oh dear.

gti5notrkt · 9 Sep 2006, 22:23 (Ref:1706208)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Freud, before you accuse me of anything, you should realize that there is more to life than F1. Perhaps there was some other major sporting event recently that Italians did quite well in?

Soccer (football) match rigging?

Apologies for the OT comment....couldn't resist...

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