Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[Maelochs]

"The car makes its lap time a different way."

Well ... so do the Mazda diesels for what it's worth.

Look, if the DWing cannot run on the same courses that the other Prototypes run, it is a failed concept. Regardless of how it makes time on the ciruits that "suit" it, if it cannot run on All circuits, it fails---simply that.

Look, I like the car and have for quite a while, and I have followed it closely since it was introduced as a prospective IndyCar chassis in what, February 2010?

Something I read back then: "The Delta Wing, which will be built by various constructors and parts suppliers in the United States, is supposed to be significantly cheaper to build and buy.

DeltaWing chief technology officer Ben Bowlby, chief engineer for Chip Ganassi Racing and a former Lola chief designer, said the car’s reduced aerodynamic drag and lighter weight would offer high performance on the racetrack with only half the engine power of its recent predecessors, and thus increased fuel efficiency.

Bowlby said he expects to 'sell a complete car, including engine, for approximately $600,000."" (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/spor...sis-29446.html)

Low drag, no wing, harder tires---fewer pit stops. (Also it was supposed to be greener. Originally the car was supposed to use recyclable CF body parts, as well as having a smaller carbon footprint in operation.)

Two things; One, all those wonderful design goals were never met (the IndyCar version was never built) and Two, neither ALMS nor TUSC are purely endurance series.

If the car can't win on a street track in a 100-minute race it has failed as a TUSC prototype. Simply that. Maybe it would work out in WEC ... but I don't see anyone writing a check to develop the existing one, let alone buy a new one----maybe because in practice it has not lived up to its potential.

We shall see what Bowlby and the ZEOD crew can do. Maybe that car will really perform on par with the other prototypes. Of course, the DWing isn't eligible anywhere except in TUSC, so that is moot.

Hopefully both existing DWings (DWing and ZEOD) can get it together but at this point neither is anything but a novelty---certainly not vehicles ushering in a new era in racing.

[miatanut]

I would like to see the Panoz DW disappear. All it is doing is making a mockery of the concept.

The two Nissan versions reflect a proper commitment to developing a new concept. The first one was quite respectable, and I expect the new one will be as well.

[brandscooper]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"The car makes its lap time a different way."

Well ... so do the Mazda diesels for what it's worth.

Look, if the DWing cannot run on the same courses that the other Prototypes run, it is a failed concept. Regardless of how it makes time on the ciruits that "suit" it, if it cannot run on All circuits, it fails---simple as that.

Who is saying the DW can't run on all types of circuits? You? That doesn't really count as a fact if its only speculation on a forum!

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by brandscooper

Who is saying the DW can't run on all types of circuits? You? That doesn't really count as a fact if its only speculation on a forum!

The team is...by not competing in the entire championship.

If it had a chance, why wouldn't then try and compete for the championship? Only logical explanation is they know they can't compete.

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by nkoske

The team is...by not competing in the entire championship.

If it had a chance, why wouldn't then try and compete for the championship? Only logical explanation is they know they can't compete.

Perhaps they simply can't afford to?

M.

[brandscooper]

Originally Posted by nkoske

The team is...by not competing in the entire championship.

If it had a chance, why wouldn't then try and compete for the championship? Only logical explanation is they know they can't compete.

Again, you're only speculating.

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

Perhaps they simply can't afford to?

M.

First Long Beach is thought to be an important race for the manufacturers due to the So. Cal. car culture. Also a place 'OK' with innovative cars. It should be a perfect place to demonstrate 'new' technologies to a fan base that will accept them. So instead they decided that Laguna (two years in a row) is a better west coast track, but with significantly fewer eyeballs watching. Only explanation...they know it won't show well at LB.

A failed experiment, IMO. How can you expect to build a brand without the proper investment. Lack of proper investment says people don't believe in it.

Who would anyone buy a DW customer car for the TUSC series when you could buy a number of cars that compete at the top and finish races right now on all tracks the series races at?

[optica]

Originally Posted by nkoske

First Long Beach is thought to be an important race for the manufacturers due to the So. Cal. car culture. Also a place 'OK' with innovative cars. It should be a perfect place to demonstrate 'new' technologies to a fan base that will accept them. So instead they decided that Laguna (two years in a row) is a better west coast track, but with significantly fewer eyeballs watching. Only explanation...they know it won't show well at LB.

A failed experiment, IMO. How can you expect to build a brand without the proper investment. Lack of proper investment says people don't believe in it.

Who would anyone buy a DW customer car for the TUSC series when you could buy a number of cars that compete at the top and finish races right now on all tracks the series races at?

As a customer car it is a non starter until it begins to show some results that would interest a potential buyer and that it isn't going to happen while they can't get the bugs out of it. I don't class it as a failed experiment for it has moments of being quite competitive and no car in any class is ideally suited to every track. It only becomes a failed experiment when you give up trying to make it work and non of the problems it has seem beyond solution at the moment. A lack of investment is probably less of a problem than a lack of luck and that can afflict any team. It's just that you don't notice it so much when the vehicle is less controversial than the DW.
Until the reliability is sorted on tracks that suit it I guess they think there is little to be gained from running it at Long Beach which obviously doesn't at present.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by optica

Until the reliability is sorted on tracks that suit it I guess they think there is little to be gained from running it at Long Beach which obviously doesn't at present.

Fair point.

I think they are doing the concept no favors, so they need to fish or cut bait. Make the necessary investment in getting the car sorted, or shut it down. Making a mockery of the concept is the wrong way to go.

[optica]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Fair point.

I think they are doing the concept no favors, so they need to fish or cut bait. Make the necessary investment in getting the car sorted, or shut it down. Making a mockery of the concept is the wrong way to go.

I agree that the initial promise the DW was showing at Petit in 2012 has gone to the wall since Panoz took it over more especially since they ditched the roadster for the less than attractive coupe just at the point when they seemed to be getting the roadster sorted. The concept obviously has potential but it looks as though we will have to look toward the Zeod now to see it being moved forward.
That isn't to say that I think the Panoz effort should be folded as I personally would rather see something innovative running (or trying to) than just another P2 or DP car. Like the others on this forum who have had to defend the DW against the barrage of naysayers since it first appeared I feel the disappointment that the Panoz effort seems to have lost the plot. So much depended on some customer cars being sold for then more people would be working on making it better. That seems a long way off now.
I think we have to wait and see what the Zeod brings to the equation and how that might influence the Panoz effort.
Bowlby must be frustrated at seeing his baby failing to develop in the Panoz family and I hope his characteristic enthusiasm is maintained by the Zeod.
However the Panoz crew must now have accumulated a great deal of experience in running the car so it would be a shame if all that effort is ultimately wasted.
Whatever the future brings for the concept I have enjoyed watching "Bowlby's Baby" taking on the motorsport world and wish there were more such revolutionary vehicles taking to the track running to less constraining rules.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by optica

Whatever the future brings for the concept I have enjoyed watching "Bowlby's Baby" taking on the motorsport world and wish there were more such revolutionary vehicles taking to the track running to less constraining rules.

Ditto!

[wdave0]

It's sort of like the talking dog - it's not how well he talks, it's that he does at all. The DW has done very well for a car designed for a spec car series with no competition other than history adapted to a world stage in a completely different arena. The Panoz operation is not helping things now - the revolutionary car is enough to overcome without a revo-evo-lutionary drivetrain as well. OTOH, it is doing a whole lot better than the last Panoz!

[FstrthnU]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/co...therine-legge/
Some interesting tidbits from the Katherine Legge interview. She says it does drive very similarly to an Indycar. Most of the downforce is coming from the floor, so they have to run low-drag.

[HJJ]

The Deltawing needs to have a new tub following Katherine's mishap a Sebring. They couldn't have made Long Beach if they wanted to.

I heard the Zeod different "systems" are not working in harmony.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/co...therine-legge/
Some interesting tidbits from the Katherine Legge interview. She says it does drive very similarly to an Indycar. Most of the downforce is coming from the floor, so they have to run low-drag.

I love how it's 5 uninteresting questions, with a supplied photo. Another Sporstcar365 exclusive.

[HJJ]

Some tech info.

http://nasportscar.com/bens-tech-corner-the-deltawing/

[Machin]

I know the ZEOD isn't the Deltawing, but none the less, the wheel layout and aero is similar enough that we can now start to see trends. Nissan also had lots of money to properly develop the concept, and had the original designer onboard (unlike the team running the Deltawing coupe in the Tudor championship). I.e there should be no excuses with the ZEOD.

ZEOD weight data taken from Racecar Engineering article (700kg with driver and 50 litres of fuel), my chart assumes the car was light on fuel for qualifying: I have used a figure of 670kg, and 400bhp for the IC as quoted on various sources on the web for their 3 cylinder turbo engine. I have used a figure of 295bhp for the electric only figure, again, taken from Racecar Engineering.

These are qualifying speeds from Le Mans 2014 (best times from all three sessions), except the ZEOD's electric only lap which was during warm up:-

[deltawing]

The car is probably 700 Kg with no fuel and no driver. To compare them correctly the ZEOD should be stripped down from batteries and the two electric motors (with all the extra cooling for the battery and all the extra cables, etc). I wish they would do it at least once, but most probably they would not, so we will never know what the car could really do in apples-to-apples comparison to the DW.

[Machin]

Originally Posted by deltawing

The car is probably 700 Kg with no fuel and no driver. To compare them correctly the ZEOD should be stripped down from batteries and the two electric motors (with all the extra cooling for the battery and all the extra cables, etc). I wish they would do it at least once, but most probably they would not, so we will never know what the car could really do in apples-to-apples comparison to the DW.

What information source do you have for the weight? Racecar Engineering says 700kg for car AND driver AND 50 litres of fuel. The good thing about using power:weight ratio to compare cars is that we don't need them to be exactly the same to see which is the better design.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Machin

Racecar Engineering says 700kg for car AND driver AND 50 litres of fuel. The good thing about using power:weight ratio to compare cars is that we don't need them to be exactly the same to see which is the better design.

Seriously, let's forget for a minute what RE says and let's use logic. Let's assume the car weights 500 kg without fuel and driver. The old DW was 475 Kg, the new DW Coupe is stated to be 495 Kg or there about. So to make things simple, let's assume the ZEOD is 500 Kg.

Now, add approximately 50 Kg of fuel (we know 50L is not 50 Kg, but let's round for now). Then add 75 Kg of a driver and you are at 625 Kg.

If RE is correct with the 700 Kg number, that means the huge battery and the two electric motors and the extra cooling system for the battery and all the extra wires related to the electric system - all that is just extra 75 Kg.? It just can not be. A battery this big (have you seen that thing?) and two electric motors of what, 110 Kw, should be at least 150 Kg all together, and with all the extra cooling and piping, cabling, it would be even more.

[Machin]

You're forgetting the new engine.

The ZEOD's engine weighs just 40kg. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112296

The Deltawing's (Production-based) engine probably weighed nearer 100kg.

That's another 60kg to add to your 75kg figure for the battery/motor(s), giving a total of 135kg.

Also don't forget the Deltawing had a hand-me-down tub. Add in a bespoke tub, and $Millions of investment by Nissan and you're bound to find another 15 to 25kg easily.

That gives you the 150kg to 160kg you want for the battery/motor... which you get from...????

But, lets indulge your numbers for a moment. In fact, lets add 100kg to the RCE figures and take 25bhp off the power figures. We end up with the curve below:-



We can then construct a curve for the "delta" layout and compare it to the curve for a "rectangular" layout. What we find is that even at Le Mans (with its long straights), a Delta layout would be approx. 8% slower if it had the same power:ratio, or it would require a power:weight ratio about 21% higher in order to achieve the same lap time.

And that is working with ZEOD power and weight figures that are very pessimistic.

[deltawing]

We are missing one very important experiment - a ZEOD with just the gasoline engine! If that could be configured (all electric stuff removed), the ZEOD would move that curve of yours to be above the "rectangular" car curve.

[Machin]

That's the beauty of my chart: we can use it to predict the performance of a delta layout with any power:weight combination we want.

Below I have taken the chart based on your ZEOD weight figures (What I have christened "The optimistic Delta layout performance prediction chart"), and then taken 150kg off the ZEOD (representing removing the batteries/motors). This new "SUPER ZEOD" would have 645bhp/ton. It wouldn't move the curve up, it would simply move the point along the curve:-



Of course, if we use the RCE weight figures (What I would call "The Realistic Delta Layout performance prediction chart"), the performance would look a lot worse.....

[deltawing]

It may take some long time, but I trust we would one day see the "Super ZEOD" configuration (I love that name you came up with!) and I am quite optimistic that it will sit right where you are predicting it would!

[HJJ]

Deltawing had a great test at Road Atlanta today covering a "race distance" before the upcoming race next weekend at Watkins Glen.

Katherine Legge and Gabby Chaves did the majority of the work. The boffins in the design department saw their new bits work well. And new team manager Tim Keene saw the work done that he wanted to see.

It was a very hot but rewarding day.