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Old 1 Sep 2014, 16:43 (Ref:3449526)   #1
FIRE
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World Rallycross Championship Circuits - Traditional vs New

Despite a multi year deal no Finnish round next season. The Kouvola round will be replaced by Barcelona.

First of course a big shame there will be no race at Kouvola.

Secondly this is not nice to treat your partners. On this way long time planning to build up something is difficult. I may hope they get some financial compensation from IMG.
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Old 1 Sep 2014, 22:01 (Ref:3449594)   #2
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Death knell for the "normal" venues I think.

If you dont stump up big bucks to hold events we are a drinks company and going to go to places where there are new people who haventy seen rallycross to try adn get them to come along.

Think Red Bull Flugtag, air rcaes and you have the right idea

Rallycross is now a commodity, a way to sell Insulin to the world!
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Old 2 Sep 2014, 21:05 (Ref:3449816)   #3
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It does make you wonder if Lydden is safe. Yes it's the home of rallycross and yes Pat and Liam have obviously been instrumental in WRX but it is hardly the facilities of a Barcelona.

With this level of investment I wonder if Mr Palmer would see enough $$$$ signs to bring rallycross back to Brands. Can easily accomodate more people than Lydden, is better for corporate sponsors and would look better on TV.

I always though Finland was one of the best tracks on the tour and took real skill - especially this year in the conditions. Such a shame to lose it. Hopefully Barcelona can have a 'real' track and not a GRC track. Time will tell.
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 11:48 (Ref:3449955)   #4
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It is an interesting conondrum WRX.

It was different in the US, there were no tracks so they ahd to make do, and they got it right a few time, but got in wrong spectacularly with the Gronholm and Heikkinen incidents.

WRX have the trakcks locations and history, yet they are still wanting to go to places before the sporet is established as a real hit.

They are trying to do too much in my opinion, you grow it first where it is popular, then go to Spain, Italy, Caribbean etc.

But like GRC going to Brazil, what a disaster that was, seemingly only to get money for Piquets floundering career lol!

When trakcs like BMaasmech, Valkenswaard, Slomczyn, Hungary and Poland are dumped for makeshift rubbish in car parks, you know this is ONLY about money adn catchment area.

And that is what I was aorried about early on, I think the sport can sustain it at the moment, but what happens next.
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 12:28 (Ref:3449969)   #5
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It does make you wonder if Lydden is safe. Yes it's the home of rallycross and yes Pat and Liam have obviously been instrumental in WRX but it is hardly the facilities of a Barcelona.

With this level of investment I wonder if Mr Palmer would see enough $$$$ signs to bring rallycross back to Brands. Can easily accomodate more people than Lydden, is better for corporate sponsors and would look better on TV.
I wouldn't be at all surprised - Mr Palmer can sit back and wait for IMG to build the sport up, once it's reached a level where he's happy he can make it pay I imagine it'd be quite simple to take the event from Lydden. Lydden can't compete on any level with Brands. Don't get me wrong - I like Lydden and think the WRX should stay there. But realistically Brands is just a 'better' venue (especially for large crowds and 'casual' fans).
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 12:53 (Ref:3449972)   #6
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If Lydden were to go then I'd rather see circuits like Brands than b****y awful FIA grade 1 circuits. I really hope we don't get it pushed down that route as Jean Todt and the FIA seem to want everything at these venues now.

I tend to agree that I don't think any of the established venues are safe even if they have a contract. We are certainly starting to see Mr Todt's vision for the future of motorsport starting to take shape in all forms of racing and rallying and I have to be honest, I don't like what I am seeing.
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 13:16 (Ref:3449979)   #7
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It is an interesting conondrum WRX.

WRX have the trakcks locations and history, yet they are still wanting to go to places before the sporet is established as a real hit.

And that is what I was aorried about early on, I think the sport can sustain it at the moment, but what happens next.
What is the sport anyway? There was still non-jokerlap rallycross in 2008 I think, just 5 years ago... If you compare that kind of rallycross with the IMG World Rallycross of today basically everything is different between the two. They both drive short races on mixed tarmac/gravel tracks. That is about it...
In just 5 years everything has changed. It is a bit weird to talk about how 'authentic' WRX still is when they changed basically everything about it...

Last edited by WJM; 3 Sep 2014 at 13:21.
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 13:42 (Ref:3449984)   #8
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The only reason Palmer will not run at Brands is because of gravel, he is a bit of a clean freak apparently! If you look at all his tracks every piece of gravel or tree at Cadwell, or Brands or Snetterton is gone, he seems to want bland airfields with perfect green grass!

You all seem to think he might have some sort of emotional attachment to rallycross coz he had a go a few times, He might, but I cant see it. He is a money man, nothing more. And a rather awkward one at that. I remmeber being really embarassed at the BSB finale a few years back when he awarded the trophy and clung on to it for a minute with the winner so he would be in the pictures. Just awful.

I doubt he even is aware of rallycross, he will run rallies, but there must be a reason, he must make a few quid surely, the entry fees must be high, he gets a half decent gate, probably better than for a club meeting, and the trakcs doesnt get covered in muck. He can close most of the track, restrict access so his security costs are minimal.

In my eyes, if he did try rallycross again, it wouldn't be at Brands or use much of the track, he would not put dirt down, I just don't think he would. It would be a temp circuit like perhaps a GRC track. Maybe using the paddock down outside paddock bend, he could praps put gravel there.

It is a goer for the PR ***** as it's near London, nearer than Lydden. Only reason Lydden has it I guess is Monster, Doran and money and they were in bed with them from the start. Thats all as they have shown little interest in showing loyalty to anyone else since WRX began.

But with Doran surely being rather unable to hold on to a sponsor like that forever, what does the future hold, would you want him on your "athele roster" doing nowt for a year and what he has done being so bad the seaosnw as over after round 3!
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Old 3 Sep 2014, 16:47 (Ref:3450013)   #9
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In just 5 years everything has changed.
Not just in rallycross, everything seems to be changing in motorsport at the moment when compared to 5 years ago.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 08:50 (Ref:3450179)   #10
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He is a money man, nothing more.
That's the very reason he might run rallycross at Brands - if he thinks he can get a big crowd in he'll bring it back. Until that point he won't bother.

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he will run rallies, but there must be a reason, he must make a few quid surely, the entry fees must be high, he gets a half decent gate, probably better than for a club meeting, and the trakcs doesnt get covered in muck. He can close most of the track, restrict access so his security costs are minimal.
Entry fees for the rallies at Brands are no higher than other single venue events (airfields, MOD sites etc). Rallies are good calendar fillers for him - one off race meetings aren't as viable financially (roundy roundy racers seem to like racing in a championship rather than picking an choosing events). The rallies at Brands run pretty much at capacity every time. The track does get some muck on it too (no more than a race meet though) - he is protective of his track surface though, no running on flat tyres allowed and he also pursues people for cost recovery of any damage to infrastructure (like gates) that take a whack.

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It is a goer for the PR ***** as it's near London, nearer than Lydden. Only reason Lydden has it I guess is Monster, Doran and money and they were in bed with them from the start.
Yep. They were in from the start - but as is the way of these things it won't take a lot for them to be out.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 10:13 (Ref:3450189)   #11
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Well there you go, if rallies at Brands run at capacity, he will have them there, they will make hom more money than a clubby race meeting, hehnce why he has now had one mid season. He owns the land, doesnt have to rent it or hire it like an airfeidl or forest, stands to make a fortune!

Runs exactly the smae as the Nordschliefe, you damage anything you pay for it.

I think rallycross would make enough money right now to run there, but not sure he is that interested, his kid is probably gonna be in F1 soon and that might perk his interest financially.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 11:54 (Ref:3450205)   #12
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Well there you go, if rallies at Brands run at capacity, he will have them there, they will make hom more money than a clubby race meeting,
The rallies aren't run by MSV though - Chelmsford MC run them, so it's no different to BARC or whoever running a race meeting there. Rallies can be slotted in at times that may not be attractive to circuit racers or to fill odd days here and there so they just add another chance to rent the circuit out.

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I think rallycross would make enough money right now to run there, but not sure he is that interested, his kid is probably gonna be in F1 soon and that might perk his interest financially.
If MSV signed a long term contract to host rallycross then yes they probably could make it pay. His son could well be in F1 at some point - I just hope he doesn't end up spending all the MSV money on that and leaving the day to day operation in trouble.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 12:10 (Ref:3450206)   #13
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About that finnish round, i have to say that i thnink that they made a big mistake that they even plan to drive the finnish round in kouvola instead of a Ahvenisto in Hämeenlinna because the ground is better in Hämeenlinna now even without fia grade license. Who knows where we would be with race in Hämeenlinna. And Ahvenisto is actually getting Fia License for FIA F4 races for next year. But that is a different story.
It's been a long time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE_2fWpgwp0&t=5m40s
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 12:17 (Ref:3450209)   #14
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Ahvenisto used to cut up terribly badly, and the weather was always bad there!

I dont know why they lost the ERC round, as it was always well attended, and then they went to that weird place that was the scene of the Schanche incident.

I know they ahve raced at Kuovola for years though so it was well established.

As for Brands, Palmer has many minions dealing with each location, he is a busy man running lots of businesses, Bedford aerodrome, a single seater series, his son's racing, manager for Wilson, BSB CeO.

he must make the rallies viable, and probably due to the costs he doesn not have to incur, that is perhaps why entries are same as other events really?

Just very rare for a venue like that to have rallies mid season, Croft, Cadwell, Rockingham, Snet in the past only ever had rallies off season.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 14:16 (Ref:3450253)   #15
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Ahvenisto was the best ERC venue I've ever been to, Pembrey was the worst.
Only prob with Ahvenisto was a too short startstraight.

Last edited by rx-guru; 4 Sep 2014 at 14:23.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 17:08 (Ref:3450288)   #16
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In answer to the forum title, I think its impossible to fully answer the question until we've seen the rest of the new circuits. So far I thought Mettett was pretty decent, not a classic but perfectly acceptable. Ok the jump was a bit unnecessary but it didn't take away from the track and I can live with jumps on the odd track here and there. Mixes it up a bit.

Trois Rivieres (apologies if I'm spelling these incorrectly as I'm typing quickly on the hoof) was awful. There wasn't really anything about it that I liked. Seemed quite a slow circuit but that's what the FIA seem to want out of any new circuit for anything, lots of really exciting slow harpin corners and chicanes. Anything that vaguely resembles a quick corner might as well be in the middle of a supermarket car park with the amount of run off they insist on.

As regards other new venues, I'll reserve judgement until I've seen them.
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Old 4 Sep 2014, 21:29 (Ref:3450363)   #17
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Top speed in Canada was 180/190 at the long straight, not that slow
But it was a GRC track indeed yeah, nothing like us old fans want to see.

Kuovola loosing it's round will more likely have to do with the financial result of this years round then with 'calender congestion' which is just a bunch of weasel marketing words imho. Why? Because the next lines tell us that for 2016 there again won't be a round in Kuovola but 'discussions are already underway to explore the prospect of a new venue '.
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Old 5 Sep 2014, 01:54 (Ref:3450413)   #18
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It does make you wonder if Lydden is safe. Yes it's the home of rallycross and yes Pat and Liam have obviously been instrumental in WRX but it is hardly the facilities of a Barcelona.

With this level of investment I wonder if Mr Palmer would see enough $$$$ signs to bring rallycross back to Brands. Can easily accomodate more people than Lydden, is better for corporate sponsors and would look better on TV.

I always though Finland was one of the best tracks on the tour and took real skill - especially this year in the conditions. Such a shame to lose it. Hopefully Barcelona can have a 'real' track and not a GRC track. Time will tell.
Sorry, but how could brands accommodate more people than Lydden? If they reinstated the old layout? From when the Grand Prix used to run, paddock has altered, the spectator bank is pushed back, the new tunnel, did away with the spectator area at the top of paddock, the best view of brands has long gone, the covered grandstand has gone, the large paddock stand has been replaced and the spectator bank in front is gone. The spectator area on the inside of paddock has gone...if the cars run along the "ridgeway" "knife edge" then there is no viewing on south bank. The Clearways banking only has a view of hoppy's drop. The view from the Desiree Wilson stand has never been good. and the new pit building restricts the viewing of cooper straight. I had a brands hatch season ticket for 23years, and the view has just got worse. Rallycross back to brands would just be a pale spectacle to what it was. Plus it was often just a drag race to the first corner, and there was often a lot of first corner damage.

The lucky few who get in the Brabham/Stewart Centre, may have a good view, but who wants to watch racing from behind glass!

Brands worked with 10 car "grand prix" grids, but did anyone really find the one European round it held with 4 to 6 car races that exciting?

Rallycross is doing itself no favours heading going to F1 tracks, the spectators will just be to far back to enjoy the spectacle.

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Old 5 Sep 2014, 06:09 (Ref:3450462)   #19
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Ahvenisto was the best ERC venue I've ever been to, Pembrey was the worst.
Only prob with Ahvenisto was a too short startstraight.
Well here they start far back than they use to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLbh2Wz8v4&t=10m49s

Damn it would be great to see international rallycross back in Ahvenisto. At this point i think that Ahvenisto is the only place in finland where they could drive rxfinland. I never went to kouvola and i never will!
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Old 5 Sep 2014, 07:44 (Ref:3450477)   #20
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Well here they start far back than they use to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLbh2Wz8v4&t=10m49s

Damn it would be great to see international rallycross back in Ahvenisto. At this point i think that Ahvenisto is the only place in finland where they could drive rxfinland. I never went to kouvola and i never will!
They never used this start line for ERC rounds. From 1980 till 1984 they even used a start line near the exit of the paddock, and the straight led after less than 100 metres into a 180° hairpin. However, understood that they also raced anti-clockwise after the ERC had left Ahvenisto, which never happened in ERC rounds.
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Old 5 Sep 2014, 11:06 (Ref:3450515)   #21
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Stephen, there is absolutely no chance, no way, never going to be rallycross on the old layout.

Tumbledown Hill is all grassed, Langleys Gap woudl have to be dug out, and whats left of Hoppys Drop.

It would be only be in an area that is not using much of the race track, My theory is that if it ever went there (and thats not likely), it would use the areas outside Druids, the paddock around te outside ot Paddock and maybe cut over the bridge near Clearways, they are all reas that dont go on track, ahve some gravel sections.

But as I say its unlikely
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Old 5 Sep 2014, 14:39 (Ref:3450554)   #22
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With this level of investment I wonder if Mr Palmer would see enough $$$$ signs to bring rallycross back to Brands. Can easily accomodate more people than Lydden, is better for corporate sponsors and would look better on TV.
Lydden will host the WRX for the next four years at least so it would have to be a lot of $$$$ to get it sooner
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Old 7 Sep 2014, 14:00 (Ref:3451015)   #23
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The president of Finland's national automobile club (AKK) Juhani Pakari said that Finland is possible in the future to organize KymiRing track, probably in 2016 or 17.
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Old 12 Sep 2014, 05:12 (Ref:3452441)   #24
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The president of Finland's national automobile club (AKK) Juhani Pakari said that Finland is possible in the future to organize KymiRing track, probably in 2016 or 17.
We can allways dream about that.
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