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Old 27 Aug 2003, 19:45 (Ref:701047)   #1
Tim Northcutt
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Promec Engine Change

I decided to start a new thread on this because it raises many questions in my mind....

Promec has decided to go either go back to the BMW 5.0 L engine that they originally tested in the car last year, or to go to another BMW engine (are there any others that fit the displacement guidelines for LMP 900s?) to replace the Sodemo Peugeot 3.4 L Turbo, and this is why they will not race at Spa this weekend....

I'm assuming that they are going back to the 5.0L engine since they have the gearboxes and other hookups they need from last year....please correct me if this is wrong....

This raises many questions for me:

1. Why would they run the Sodemo engine in the first place after testing the chassis last summer with the BMW engine when they had to know that the Sodemo engine was not competitive with other engine options, like the Judd or the Ford-derived engines based on racing results over the past couple of years?

2. Others have raced the BMW engine in the past, but have abandoned it for other options....why would they return to the BMW, when they apparently didn't like the results or would not have switched to the Sodemo in the first place for this year???

3. Does anyone know how this 5.0L BMW engine compares in physical dimensions - length, width and height - to a Judd 4.0L or 5.0L, or even to the Mugen engine (which didn't race too badly in the Kondo at LM this year...it showed decent speed....) and if they compare in size with the BMW, why wouldn't Promec look at something different for power that might give them an edge?

4. Why wouldn't they make that change AFTER Spa, unless they felt that the Sodemo power at that circuit would be a waste of time when they were planning to make the change????

On the surface, they obviously have data from their tests with the BMW, have a cowling that will fit over the engine that has been tested for aero and other factors, and have a good baseline to build from based on last year...it also has to be cheaper, since they already have the engines and don't have to buy anything up front with this change...at least they won't be starting from square one with this change...

Personally, I was expecting them to run the BMW from the beginning this year, because that was what they originally started with as they developed the car....now they have wasted five races with an engine that wasn't going to give them the horsepower they needed to run with the Judds and will miss Spa when they could have learned even more for next year by running the BMW from the start of this season...

Yes...they finished 2nd at Donnington...but that was due to the other front runners dropping out with mechanical issues...they were 3 laps off the pace....

Final Question:

Does anyone know of any helpful links where info can be gotten on the particulars of this 5.0 L engine (the racing version of it???

I didn't see it listed in Mike's site index...

Your thoughts and your guidance on these issues would be most appreciated....
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 12:51 (Ref:701761)   #2
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Re: Promec Engine Change

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Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Promec has decided to go either go back to the BMW 5.0 L engine that they originally tested in the car last year, or to go to another BMW engine (are there any others that fit the displacement guidelines for LMP 900s?) to replace the Sodemo Peugeot 3.4 L Turbo, and this is why they will not race at Spa this weekend....

I'm assuming that they are going back to the 5.0L engine since they have the gearboxes and other hookups they need from last year....please correct me if this is wrong....

This raises many questions for me:

1. Why would they run the Sodemo engine in the first place after testing the chassis last summer with the BMW engine when they had to know that the Sodemo engine was not competitive with other engine options, like the Judd or the Ford-derived engines based on racing results over the past couple of years?

2. Others have raced the BMW engine in the past, but have abandoned it for other options....why would they return to the BMW, when they apparently didn't like the results or would not have switched to the Sodemo in the first place for this year???



It's an odd situation- I could have understood it more easily if they were swapping the Sodemo for a Judd, but the BMW V8 doesn't have much of a record of success in prototypes- as you said, most of the teams who've tried it (Rafanelli, GMS/Durango, RWS) have abandoned it after a fairly short time- I can't think of anyone using it for more than a single season.

The other thing that puzzles me, is that I'm sure I remember that at one point last year, they were talking about running two cars- one with the original BMW, and one with either a Sodemo or a Judd, and I'm sure I saw a photo somewhere (Dailysportscar?) showing two cars outside a workshop- can anyone confirm whether there is more than one chassis, or am I imagining this?

I'm presuming there can't be (or at least not one close to race-ready), or they'd be using the second car with the BMW engine rather than swapping them....
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 13:50 (Ref:701829)   #3
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I only recall seeing the test car pics (still in the carbon-fiber look -- not even a coat of primer on it) that were on the old FIA-SCC site when you went to the "Constructors" link in that site....in that picture, the cowling over the engine and the intakes on either side of the driver's head definitely indicated that it had the BMW engine in it...

Also, the Promec car was a "work in progress" for a few years, and they sure didin't seem to have any significant sponsor names or decals on their car in recent races, so I'm assuming that $$$ (sorry, but my keyboard doesn't have the Euro symbol on it) would be the reason for one car....unless of course they have converted the second chassis via the necessary 2004 aero and rules (twin roll hoops, etc.)changes for the rumored LMP2 car with Maserati power that we have read about in other threads....
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 16:18 (Ref:701966)   #4
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I think also that money is the reason to choose for the under-powered BMW or Sodemo engine.

Who's the tuner of this 5L BMW engine?

Last edited by FIRE; 28 Aug 2003 at 16:19.
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 17:41 (Ref:702036)   #5
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Yet another good question, FIRE....

are there any specific engine builders or tuners associated with BMW power in any of the European GT or Touring car series that might be involved with them???
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 18:54 (Ref:702099)   #6
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Norma used also a BMW engine in the past. See: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/sportracer/N...%202000-01.htm
What I understand (I speak no French) that it's a 4L Mader engine base on a BMW M5 engine.
Ascari used an BMW engine in 1 of their cars. But it was not a success.

Also Debora used BMW engines in Sportscar Lights/LM675 class.

Last edited by FIRE; 28 Aug 2003 at 18:57.
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 19:00 (Ref:702104)   #7
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If you do a google search on Promec, some of the accounts on their Initial tests last year indicate that the car was running a 5.0L BMW engine....


On another note:

That chassis was designed by Giuseppi Angiulli, who was once apparently associated with Alfa Romeo and Team Rafanelli...at least that is what I gathered from one of the pieces that showed up in the search...
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 19:01 (Ref:702106)   #8
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And Spyker used the Mader engines:
Quote:
The Spyker C8 Double12R was unveiled at the Internationale Automobil Ausstellung (IAA) in Frankfurt on 11 September, 2001. The car is fitted with a Spyker-Mader 4 litre engine boasting 620 BHP without restrictors and 503 BHP with Le Mans restrictors. During recent windtunnel testing at BMW’s test centre in Munich, the car proved its excellent aerodynamics, its drag amounting to a mere 0.276
source: www.spykercars.com

But these are all 4L engines and Promec has a 5L so I think it's an different engine.

Last edited by FIRE; 28 Aug 2003 at 19:02.
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 19:08 (Ref:702110)   #9
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I think I am closer now. Picchio uses a 4.9L BMW engine in their DP, see: http://www.picchio.com/english/auto/dati_tecnici.htm

Tim "Engine" Northcutt maybe you know more about this engine?
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 20:42 (Ref:702160)   #10
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Morgan Aero uses a Mader built v8 BMW as well.

Are we sure they are putting a five litre in the car? If they put a four litre, wouldn't they be eligable for the new smaller prototype class?
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 20:51 (Ref:702164)   #11
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The engine that they originally tested the car with was a 5.0 liter
V-8 according to all of the web searches that I did...

By The Way... their version of the Sodemo Peugeot was supposedly different than the Pescarolo engines...the turbos were Garrett turbos and the promec engine also had different intake manifolds...not that it seemed to make that much difference in the performance...

Question:

There apparently is a performance company based in Milan, Italy called racing Dynamics that supposedly builds performance BMW engines...

Are they a race builder, or are they tuners and performance part providers for street machines???

I've never heard of them before in racing circles, and I don't own a Beemer, so I'm not familiar with them at all...
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 21:53 (Ref:702198)   #12
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Promec's BMW seems to be from an Italian tuner named Armaroli according to a report on DSC earlier in the week- and confirmed on Promec's website:

http://www.promecauto.it/nuova_pagina_1.htm
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 22:02 (Ref:702200)   #13
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Thanks, KA....

Now...does anyone know anything about the racing pedigree of Armaroli Sport???

Just wondering...I've never heard of them...
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 22:24 (Ref:702210)   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
The engine that they originally tested the car with was a 5.0 liter
V-8 according to all of the web searches that I did...
By The Way... their version of the Sodemo Peugeot was supposedly different than the Pescarolo engines...the turbos were Garrett turbos and the promec engine also had different intake manifolds...not that it seemed to make that much difference in the performance...
Question:
There apparently is a performance company based in Milan, Italy called racing Dynamics that supposedly builds performance BMW engines...
Are they a race builder, or are they tuners and performance part providers for street machines???
I've never heard of them before in racing circles, and I don't own a Beemer, so I'm not familiar with them at all...
Just a bit of idle speculation, but could the differences between the Sodemo engines be down to Pescarolo using a later development of the engine than Promec?-

Although if UK publication Motorsport News is to be believed, Henri may be switching to Judd or Mugen next year, as he fears Peugeot may not renew the contract beyond this season- (the same piece also says they currently provide two-thirds of his budget, so this is obviously more than a simple customer engine supply deal, and presumably would account for Pesca getting different Sodemos to Promec...)


As to Racing Dynamics, I believe they ran BMW touring cars in Italy in the early 90's, but I don't know of any sportscar involvement
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Old 28 Aug 2003, 22:42 (Ref:702223)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Thanks, KA....

Now...does anyone know anything about the racing pedigree of Armaroli Sport???

Just wondering...I've never heard of them...
I know that they also prepare 3l-CN-Engines for hillclimb- and roadracing prototypes. The JAZ-Breda in the sportscar-Challenge is also fitted with an Amaroli 3l.
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 13:21 (Ref:702649)   #16
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BTW...thanks for the Promec site link, KA....

Personally, the center of the nose of this chassis is not that attractive, but virtually every other part of the design is sharp-looking....I especially like the way they incorporated the sidepod areas and the air intakes into the rear half of the car....

As they update it, I'm sure that they will have to build up side walls on the cockpit surrounding the drivers (very exposed cockpit IMHO) but I do like the overall lines on the car...

I also hope that this engine builder can give them some horsepower to become competitive....I like diversity, and having a BMW engine back in the prototype mix in an independent factory car is great for the sport...
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 17:15 (Ref:702880)   #17
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I like diversity, and having a BMW engine back in the prototype mix in an independent factory car is great for the sport...
I agree, but to be competative you need a Judd, Mugen or a power block from the US. The problem of the BMW is problably lack of development.
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 17:42 (Ref:702904)   #18
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I agree with you, FIRE.....

That was one of the issues I raised at the beginning of this thread...

The physical constraints of the chassis design (especially with the way the back half of the car is shaped) looks a like it might have difficulty holding a bigger U.S.-built 6.0 L engine, but if the physical dimensions of either of the Judd engine (4.0 L or 5.0 L) or the Mugen are comparable to the BMW, why not run something that has shown that it is capable of competing???

OK, the Mugen hasn't had a lot of results to show because it ran in the Panoz LMP07, but it was fairly fast in the Kondo Dome at LM this year.....

and I would think that Judd might be looking for someone to be a test mule for the 5.0L engine since the Doran/Lista Dallara has now gone away...Why not get in touch with that team to buy their engines and parts????

I'll reserve judgement until we can see how they run in the coming months....it just raises more questions than it answers for me...
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 18:03 (Ref:702926)   #19
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why not run something that has shown that it is capable of competing???
Maybe this has something to to with money. I think a Judd or Mugen is much more expensive.

Quote:
and I would think that Judd might be looking for someone to be a test mule for the 5.0L engine since the Doran/Lista Dallara has now gone away...Why not get in touch with that team to buy their engines and parts????
Good idea!
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 19:28 (Ref:702978)   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
By The Way... their version of the Sodemo Peugeot was supposedly different than the Pescarolo engines...the turbos were Garrett turbos and the promec engine also had different intake manifolds...not that it seemed to make that much difference in the performance...
The Sedomo motor in the Pesca car also uses Garrett turbos. And the intakes are different on that car because it takes it's air from one inlet above the driver's head, not snorkel inlets on the side like the Promec.

Wow. That Peugeot motor must really be a dog for Promec to pick a BMW M5 motor over it. I always thought the lack of speed in the Pesca car was largely due to chassis/aero. Guess not.
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 19:43 (Ref:702988)   #21
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I think Promec is looking for SOMETHING to make a difference, and they already have the BMW engine in-house from their tests....

Maybe they feel that Amarolo Sport can get moe power out of the BMW withour spending more $$$ with Sodemo to try to improve that engine....

Just speculating, but I think I'd be calling the Doran/Lista guys to buy that 5.0 Judd sitting in that dallara in their garage.....bet they'd sell it for a good price....

Fulvio says that Durango ran the BMW before switching to the Judd they have now...he says the BMW is heavier and doesn't have as much power as the Judd, but it is a lot cheaper and you can do more of your own work on it to make it better....

We'll see
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Old 29 Aug 2003, 20:10 (Ref:703009)   #22
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Judd motors are leased. I'm sure John Judd would be happy to lease Promec a motor for an appropriate exchange of $$$.

I'm sure the change to BMW for Promec is an improvement - better value for the $$$. Just illustrates what a dog the Sedomo is. I can only speculate that the only reason Pesca runs it is for the funding Peugeot gives his team.
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Old 30 Aug 2003, 10:53 (Ref:703277)   #23
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Originally posted by C_g
Judd motors are leased. I'm sure John Judd would be happy to lease Promec a motor for an appropriate exchange of $$$.

I'm sure the change to BMW for Promec is an improvement - better value for the $$$. Just illustrates what a dog the Sedomo is. I can only speculate that the only reason Pesca runs it is for the funding Peugeot gives his team.
I suspect Pesca is probably getting better Sodemos than Promec though.....
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Old 30 Aug 2003, 15:10 (Ref:703389)   #24
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so? it still lacks cyclinders/displacement. a 3.2l tt production v6 against a 3.6l tt v8 designed for racing? id love to see the peugeot offer an updated version of the 905b v10 ether taske it out to 4l and or turbo
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Old 2 Sep 2003, 14:22 (Ref:705729)   #25
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I'm sue that if Promec had the $$$ to lease a Judd, they would do it....

That apparently is the key issue here...

and I agree with you Es Nes...we talked about reviving or updating a Peugeot engine last spring in a thread titled "LM Engine Options"

Unfortunately, Peugeot seems too plugged into their Rally program to give a serious effort to an engine for prototypes...it is probably why Pescarolo can't get the power they need to be fully competitive.

I'm guessing that their involvement with Pescarolo is due mostly to Henri being a French racing legend....I'm sure they aren't running TV commercials saying "We Finished 9th or 10th at Le Mans"
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