Can you sell your motorsport photographs?

[JohnD63]

I don't know much about the world of Motorsport photography, amateur or professional, but many of these racing cars and the drivers crash helmets are covered in sponsorship logos which are Trade mark protected. So i was interested to know if you guys have problems selling your pictures with these logos on or do you have to have the sponsors permmission? It seems to be a very Grey area.

[Adam43]

I doubt that would be a problem (although I don't know for sure). However I would be more worried about selling photographs if you aren't an official photographer for that meeting. Perhaps someone more in the know could comment on this too?

[BertMk2]

As far as I understand it in most cases the circuit owns the copyright to any pictures you take (it's a condition of entry on tickets for places like the MSV circuits and Silverstone) so you can't sell your images without their permission. The official photographers at a meeting are allowed to sell images - but they're spcifically authorised by the circuit to do so.

So basically - if you're taking your pictures from the spectator areas you can't sell them.

As far as the various logos are concerned I doubt it's a problem - after all, the more exposure those get the better surely?

[jonbryant]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As far as I understand it in most cases the circuit owns the copyright to any pictures you take (it's a condition of entry on tickets for places like the MSV circuits and Silverstone) so you can't sell your images without their permission. The official photographers at a meeting are allowed to sell images - but they're spcifically authorised by the circuit to do so.

So basically - if you're taking your pictures from the spectator areas you can't sell them.

As far as the various logos are concerned I doubt it's a problem - after all, the more exposure those get the better surely?

Spot on Bert

[PDS]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The official photographers at a meeting are allowed to sell images - but they're spcifically authorised by the circuit to do so.

In theory... if you sign on for a newspaper or magazine.. you can't sell prints either!

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by PDS

In theory... if you sign on for a newspaper or magazine.. you can't sell prints either!

oooh.

I didn't know that!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by PDS

In theory... if you sign on for a newspaper or magazine.. you can't sell prints either!

Correct, the media sign on allows you to use the photographs for media purposes not for commercial purposes. This requires an additional licence.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Correct, the media sign on allows you to use the photographs for media purposes not for commercial purposes. This requires an additional licence.

I wonder how many people stick to that?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by minimangler

I wonder how many people stick to that?

Mostly the ones who want to continue to get accreditation.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by minimangler

I wonder how many people stick to that?

As Redshoes can verify... some circuits check!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by PDS

As Redshoes can verify... some circuits check!

Well yes and no. I had worked at the circuit previously but not for the at least 12-18 months. The photos they contacted me about had actually been taken as a paying spectator but since the email address they used was the one I had used when applying for accreditation previously.

Mini, I'm a little surprised that you didn't know that. Next time you apply for accreditation be sure to read the form before you sign it. It's like wearing a tabbard properly or standing in the proper place, you need to know and understand the rules even if, like everyone else, you don't always follow them.

The reality is that there are any number of photographers, both professional and amateur, selling prints. Look at the regular posters in this forum, most of us have some sort of website - anything from a Flickr account upwards. I'd bet that on most of those sites will be a reference to buying prints. That could be as simple as a 'contact me' email address or a fully integrated on-line ordering system.

The trick is not to be too blatant about it. If you wander around the paddock with an armful of 8 by 10s touting for business then you are asking for trouble.

It depends on the circuit. A few years ago Mallory effectively sold the commercial rights and handed over admin for accreditation to a local photographer, who was very protective of those rights. If he thought you were going to see anything then your chances of getting accreditation were almost nil.

Also depends a lot on which series is involved. Don't know if it's still the case now MSV have taken over but British Superbikes were notoriously overprotective of their commercial rights. At one stage they were emailing anyone with a website demanding the pictures be removed or face legal action. They did let commercial sales but only if you were willing to pay for the appropriate rights - around £4-500 as I recall.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Well yes and no. I had worked at the circuit previously but not for the at least 12-18 months. The photos they contacted me about had actually been taken as a paying spectator but since the email address they used was the one I had used when applying for accreditation previously.

Mini, I'm a little surprised that you didn't know that. Next time you apply for accreditation be sure to read the form before you sign it. It's like wearing a tabbard properly or standing in the proper place, you need to know and understand the rules even if, like everyone else, you don't always follow them.

The reality is that there are any number of photographers, both professional and amateur, selling prints. Look at the regular posters in this forum, most of us have some sort of website - anything from a Flickr account upwards. I'd bet that on most of those sites will be a reference to buying prints. That could be as simple as a 'contact me' email address or a fully integrated on-line ordering system.

The trick is not to be too blatant about it. If you wander around the paddock with an armful of 8 by 10s touting for business then you are asking for trouble.

It depends on the circuit. A few years ago Mallory effectively sold the commercial rights and handed over admin for accreditation to a local photographer, who was very protective of those rights. If he thought you were going to see anything then your chances of getting accreditation were almost nil.

Also depends a lot on which series is involved. Don't know if it's still the case now MSV have taken over but British Superbikes were notoriously overprotective of their commercial rights. At one stage they were emailing anyone with a website demanding the pictures be removed or face legal action. They did let commercial sales but only if you were willing to pay for the appropriate rights - around £4-500 as I recall.

Thanks for the advice. I'll be more careful.

[Boro]

It also depends on the series with which you shot the races at.

I know that IMSA has two different types of credentials; one is non commercial use and one is commercial use.

The former is 500 bucks for a year, the latter, 2500.

I had a talk with Bob Dickinson who is in charge of media at IMSA and he basically said that you can sell the photos for editorial use with the non commercial use license, but you can't sell it for commercial use. I'm guessing that if you sold a photo to a driver, a team, or a sponsor of the series, that'd be fair game and under editorial; but anything outside of that is commercial.

[MikeHoyer]

Don't think so, only if it was press use.

[Ryan]

John H. reminded everyone at Road America that pictures taken by fans are for our own personal enjoyment. I just reheard it when I was listening to the broadcast replay a few hours ago.

[Snapperjack]

How does a driver in a race officially buy a photograph of himself racing?

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Snapperjack

How does a driver in a race officially buy a photograph of himself racing?

Agency?

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Snapperjack

How does a driver in a race officially buy a photograph of himself racing?

Ask a Photographer!?!

The issue is photographer's advertise selling prints!

There are many photographers that sell prints that don't advertise!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by PDS

The issue is photographer's advertise selling prints!

Surely the issue is the selling part not the advertising part. Just because they don't advertise doesn't mean they have the right to sell prints.

Snapperjack's question is where can someone legally buy prints - doing it on the quiet isn't an answer. That is unless the photographer is willing to give his work away for free.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Surely the issue is the selling part not the advertising part. Just because they don't advertise doesn't mean they have the right to sell prints.

Yes you are right..but, my point was that, you were approched because your site said your prints were for sale.. how many people are approached that don't advertise them?

Originally Posted by redshoes

Snapperjack's question is where can someone legally buy prints.

As there is not a list of photographers or agencies that are in a position to sell prints... Again my answer is to ask the photographer... I am not suggesting the photographer will do it 'on the quiet', or god forbid, do it for free!

I would not be able to tell who can sell prints without asking! Perhaps the organising club, if you are a race driver?

[BertMk2]

Any photographers that are entitled to sell prints from a particular meeting must have signed on at the meeting in question - so surely it's a case of finding the list of names and going from there?

[mark_l]

Circuits cannot release names and addresses of signed on media under data protection act, the easiest way to find an official photographer is look for a person with a camera and tabard at trackside.

[ukaskew]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

So basically - if you're taking your pictures from the spectator areas you can't sell them.

And if you can't sell them, you can't supply a portfolio of published images to get accreditation...and if you can't get accreditation, you can't sell them to papers/mags. Such is the chicken and egg situation many find themselves in.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by ukaskew

And if you can't sell them, you can't supply a portfolio of published images to get accreditation...and if you can't get accreditation, you can't sell them to papers/mags. Such is the chicken and egg situation many find themselves in.

Sorry to burst your bubble... Not quite like that!

Most local newspapers don't pay for for pictures! Nationals do, but you won't get a letter of accreditation from a National newspaper unless you are employed by them!

Selling prints and supplying images to papers are different even if you get paid for them!
If you get a picture in a publication, that is good for the venue/event, it's exposure for them.

Selling pictures go nowhere to adverstise them, just money in the photographers pocket!

[ukaskew]

I didn't explain myself too well. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in many respects it's a a catch 22 situation. I go to about 20 events per year, I've never advertised my photos but I've ended up being offered money for photos (by sponsors, drivers etc who have somehow tracked down my photos) after nearly every event.

As far as I am aware, I can't sell these photos as I'm not an accredited photographer, so the only option is to give them away (which appears to be severely frowned upon here and elsewhere), but without getting your work out there, it's very hard to get accreditation.