[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The latest RCE edition has an article about the 2014 LMP1 rules, that contains a lot of interesting simulations to predict the lap time, top speed, best engine configuration, etc. :

The author simulated two engine configurations (small 2.8 V6 vs big 4.0 V8) and concludes that the bigger engine is the best option.

• 2.8 V6:
  • peak torque: 337 Nm
  • peak power: 364 hp
  • lap time: 3:45.46
  • top speed: 276 km/h
  • fuel consumption: 4.95 liter/lap
• 4.0 V8:
  • peak torque: 492 Nm
  • peak power: 497 hp
  • lap time: 3:39.88
  • top speed: 277 km/h
  • fuel consumption: 4.95 liter/lap

He gives this explanation for better lap time:

This confirms why Judd believes a big, low revving V10 is better option than small, high revving V8.

The author also analyzed the impact in lap time of other improvements.

• baseline (4.0 V8): 3:39.88
• +5% downforce: 3:39.46 -> -0.42 sec
• -5% drag: 3:38.41 -> -1.45 sec
• +5% engine efficiency: 3:36.47 -> -3.41 sec

So the manufacturers will have to focus on reducing aerodynamic drag and improve the engine efficiency.

The top speed would drop from 335 km/h from Toyota to 277 km/h, that´s strange!!!!!!!

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Some interesting quotes from the WMS13 keynote of FIA technical director Bernard Niclot:
source: https://twitter.com/RaceTechmag

Very interesting indeed - thanks!

"There are 3 types of championship - technology showcases (F1, WEC); marketing-led (WRC, touring cars); and customer (GT etc.)"

To fill a field and make a championship sustainable, you need customers. There's no way 6-10 manufacturers can survive a decade investing heavily in works teams. You need privateers to pay for cheaper cars, so the works teams recover some of the investment.

"Formula E will need tight regulations to get it started effectively, but later we will open up a lot of engineering freedom."

I don't think that the current formula is atractive. Who will watch slow, identical cars with nonames as drivers? You need something else then electric cars to attract fans: amazing looks or speed, star drivers, works teams, something.

"In an efficiency formula it's vital you control the fuel flow, rather than allowing people to burn fuel initially then ease off."

Why so? I mean, perhaps that's true, but I don't understand why, I need an explanation.

"Prototypes or bolt-on kits unlikely, but we could well see hybrids based on existing road cars coming to the WRC or WTCC."

That's expensive. Who will pay for them? Current cars are expensive. WRC has pathetic grids, and WTCC has been struggling with few works teams (Ford and Volvo left recently).

"Motorsport (via technical innovation it produces) is just about the only sport that could actually reduce global CO2."

Cycling?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

The top speed would drop from 335 km/h from Toyota to 277 km/h, that´s strange!!!!!!!

The article uses a 2012 LMP1 car with a 3.4 V8 engine as base line.
This simulated engine produces 515 bhp and this simulated car sets a lap time of 3:32.81 and a top speed of 311 km/h.
That simulation looks a bit low if you look at top speeds of the privateer LMP1 cars during the 2012 24LM.

• Strakka #21: 322.7 km/h
• JRM #22: 321.8 km/h
• Rebellion #12: 316 km/h
• Dome #17: 315.3 km/h
• Rebellion #13: 315.1 km/h
• Oak #15: 310.6 km/h
• Pescarolo #17: 304.5 km/h

In case of the hypothetical 2014 LMP1 car with 5% engine efficiency improvement, the simulated top speed is 282 km/h.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

"In an efficiency formula it's vital you control the fuel flow, rather than allowing people to burn fuel initially then ease off."

Why so? I mean, perhaps that's true, but I don't understand why, I need an explanation.

Another option would be to allocate a certain amount of fuel for the complete race (e.g., 2000 liter).

That could lead to some teams, who know that the car is unreliable, dominating the first hours of the race by burning all their fuel.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

"Motorsport (via technical innovation it produces) is just about the only sport that could actually reduce global CO2."

Cycling?

Humans inhale oxygen (O2) and exhale carbon dioxide (CO2)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The article uses a 2012 LMP1 car with a 3.4 V8 engine as base line.
This simulated engine produces 515 bhp and this simulated car sets a lap time of 3:32.81 and a top speed of 311 km/h.
That simulation looks a bit low if you look at top speeds of the privateer LMP1 cars during the 2012 24LM.

• Strakka #21: 322.7 km/h
• JRM #22: 321.8 km/h
• Rebellion #12: 316 km/h
• Dome #17: 315.3 km/h
• Rebellion #13: 315.1 km/h
• Oak #15: 310.6 km/h
• Pescarolo #17: 304.5 km/h

In case of the hypothetical 2014 LMP1 car with 5% engine efficiency improvement, the simulated top speed is 282 km/h.

Does the calculation take into account the reduction in frontal size of the P1 cars?

[gregtummer]

I'm sorry, but we better see top speed way above 277 km/h

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Does the calculation take into account the reduction in frontal size of the P1 cars?

I have the impression that the author mainly focused on the engine options. In the overview table on p. 54 he assumes the same aero numbers for the 2012 and 2014 car

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I have the impression that the author mainly focused on the engine options. In the overview table on p. 54 he assumes the same aero numbers for the 2012 and 2014 car

So in that case the drag can be decreased by the percentage of surface area we lose by narrowing the cars, and therefore the top speed should be better again than in the calculations.

[gustavobamba]

Sorry but i don´t understand that max speed number´s.

I believe that Porsche,Audi and Toyota will pass the 320 km/ mark easy.


Will the 8MJ per lap only favor acceleration or increase the top speed to??

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Sorry but i don´t understand that max speed number´s.

I believe that Porsche,Audi and Toyota will pass the 320 km/ mark easy.


Will the 8MJ per lap only favor acceleration or increase the top speed to??

Acceleration.
Top Speed is about top end power, gearing and aerodynamics.

[gregtummer]

Another thing to take into consideration, if top speed is around 277km/ (about 173mph), say even 180-185mph, it will be a nightmare for LMP1s to past GTs on the straights since the Ferrari was hitting 184mph.

[Spyderman]

Oh boy! Things look grim.

[TF110]

May as well take off all the wing. It'll be worse than LMP2 speeds. I don't buy that. I think the cars will be nearly as fast as they are now. The 458 doesn't have nearly as much power as these cars, so they should definitely be faster, especially with their better aero.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.racer.com/gavin-fears-qui...rticle/275879/
Oliver Gavin reminds us to not forget about the sound of racing

[arakis]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Another thing to take into consideration, if top speed is around 277km/ (about 173mph), say even 180-185mph, it will be a nightmare for LMP1s to past GTs on the straights since the Ferrari was hitting 184mph.

Yeah but the huge torque/ weight difference will make then launch out of corners much faster then GTE, also the Aero will let them take correnes much faster thus their initial exiting speed will be much faster, they are also much better under bracking.. The only concern is if the GTE car already reached terminal velocity, and LMP1 is chasing it.. in which case they'll have to wait for the next bracking area, or correr to pass.

[Maelochs]

GTE-LMPC (GTE-FLM for the Euros) shows how this might work out. At some tracks it can be a problem, but I am okay with the occasional overall GTE win

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

"In an efficiency formula it's vital you control the fuel flow, rather than allowing people to burn fuel initially then ease off."

Why so? I mean, perhaps that's true, but I don't understand why, I need an explanation.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Another option would be to allocate a certain amount of fuel for the complete race (e.g., 2000 liter).

.

Bernard Niclot is talking about what makes a car efficient. I don't understand why controlling fuel flow will make cars more efficient than using lots of enery for a few seconds and save the rest of the time.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

"Motorsport (via technical innovation it produces) is just about the only sport that could actually reduce global CO2."

Cycling?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Humans inhale oxygen (O2) and exhale carbon dioxide (CO2)

For short distances, humans are more efficient than cars, right?

[CTD]

Engines are less efficient under a heavy foot (fast acceleration) than under a "moderate" one. If you restrict airflow you make sure that the engine won't reach the same consumption as an unrestricted engine.
Only a guess...

[Ratzenberger]

I think after today's disappointingly low number of P1 entries in both WEC/LM24 and the current struggle to get any prototypes at all in ALMS something needs to be done by the ACO to rejuvenate sportscar racing.

Like many of you have said recently, I can see the top category being an exclusive area for the factory efforts to play in the coming years and I think it's the only way forward. But in my view the class structure needs to be changed.

Personally I'd like to see is a single LMP class for privateers and a new LMGTP for manufacturer-only entries where the likes of Porsche, Audi, Toyota etc can go crazy with the latest racing technologies. They could use the basic dimensions (weight & measurements) for the current P2's but visually be more like a road going supercar.

Maybe I'm just looking for a way to entice McLaren and other exotic car brands to come endurance racing with extreme GT cars and the only people that can afford to build something on that scale would be factory backed projects so why not?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Ratzenberger

I think after today's disappointingly low number of P1 entries in both WEC/LM24 and the current struggle to get any prototypes at all in ALMS something needs to be done by the ACO to rejuvenate sportscar racing.

Like many of you have said recently, I can see the top category being an exclusive area for the factory efforts to play in the coming years and I think it's the only way forward. But in my view the class structure needs to be changed.

Personally I'd like to see is a single LMP class for privateers and a new LMGTP for manufacturer-only entries where the likes of Porsche, Audi, Toyota etc can go crazy with the latest racing technologies. They could use the basic dimensions (weight & measurements) for the current P2's but visually be more like a road going supercar.

Maybe I'm just looking for a way to entice McLaren and other exotic car brands to come endurance racing with extreme GT cars and the only people that can afford to build something on that scale would be factory backed projects so why not?

I think that would make for a spectacular show, plus it gives manufacturers a chance to showcase/develop their advanced streetcar technology at the sharp end of the field.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Ratzenberger

I think after today's disappointingly low number of P1 entries in both WEC/LM24 and the current struggle to get any prototypes at all in ALMS something needs to be done by the ACO to rejuvenate sportscar racing.

Like many of you have said recently, I can see the top category being an exclusive area for the factory efforts to play in the coming years and I think it's the only way forward. But in my view the class structure needs to be changed.

Personally I'd like to see is a single LMP class for privateers and a new LMGTP for manufacturer-only entries where the likes of Porsche, Audi, Toyota etc can go crazy with the latest racing technologies. They could use the basic dimensions (weight & measurements) for the current P2's but visually be more like a road going supercar.

Maybe I'm just looking for a way to entice McLaren and other exotic car brands to come endurance racing with extreme GT cars and the only people that can afford to build something on that scale would be factory backed projects so why not?

At the end of the day thats largely what we have... P1 is for manufacturers and P2 is for privateers. with the new 2014 rules coming on the only changes I would like is as much freedom as possible for the factories and any super rich (such as Red Bull??) teams in P1 and a P2 pro and a P2 am category for the rest

As for looking like road going cars - no, I dont agree these are prototypes. GT is for that.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by joeb

I think that would make for a spectacular show, plus it gives manufacturers a chance to showcase/develop their advanced streetcar technology at the sharp end of the field.

For about 2-3 years until budgets dry up and everyone leaves. Of course, after those 2-3 years being absolutely manic and being hailed by everyone as a golden era of sportscar racing.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

For about 2-3 years until budgets dry up and everyone leaves. Of course, after those 2-3 years being absolutely manic and being hailed by everyone as a golden era of sportscar racing.

If the manufacturers actually show up...If Toyota pulls the plug after this year, 2014 will be another big 'could have been'... How long will Volkswagen support Audi vs Porsche without any outside competition?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

If the manufacturers actually show up...If Toyota pulls the plug after this year, 2014 will be another big 'could have been'... How long will Volkswagen support Audi vs Porsche without any outside competition?

I was talking about the hypothetical LMGTP class for manufacturers described above.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

I was talking about the hypothetical LMGTP class for manufacturers described above.

I was referring to that as well - just using 2014 as an example...