ALMS Round 9/ILMC Round 6: Petit Le Mans 29 Sep -1 Oct

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I wanted to edit my previous post, but that is relevant to this one as well.
The passing driver is always at the mercy of the one being passed. Simply saying "it's the responsibility of the guy making the pass" and giving the car in front carte blanche to do whatever he wants to prevent it isn't going to work. If it's always the fault of the driver making the pass you're legalizing overtaking out of racing.

fair enough, but the passing driver has the responsiblity to avoid going into gaps that are not there or will disappear (without any abnormal action of the driver that is being passed) well before the passing can be executed.

[Mike_Wooshy]

I don't think I personally am legalizing overtaking out of racing at all. Fact is the road goes to the left, both cars had passed a 911 which is on the left. Dumas goes for a gap that's only going to close and or result in contact. In total fairness he (Dumas) only had to lift off the accelerator and there wouldn't have been an accident (Or even go to the right of the Peugeot for Dumas to be on the "inside" for the turn 9 kink). To say the Peugeot had a Blank cheque to do what he wanted is well wide of the mark. He (Montagny) was returning to the racing line. If you look back there was plenty of room on right of the Peugoet to make a move. End of the story is the same, Dumas in the heat of battle went of a move that didn't pay off. If it did I think we would all be saying what a move by Dumas, that's racing lets get over it. There certainly was no malicious play involved in this move.

Scrap what I said about going to the right there wasnt enough room. But I still stand by what I said about lifting off the accelerator pedal. Discretion being the better part of valour, is really what it should have come down to.

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

I thought I'd let it die now, because the incident has been discussed so much already, but I can't resist because I have just bumped accidentaly on the highlights of the Imola race, and found something quite ironic considering the Dumas claim of Montagny's dirt driving:

It's the same situation but with the hunter / hunted roles swaped. Look Montagny overtake the #1 at 0:34 in the vid. Fassler is also going back to the right after passing the GT to claim the racing line for the next turn, forcing Franck to veer on the edge of the track, escaping a clash with the Porsche for a few cm...

It's nearly exactly the same move Dumas tried to put on Montagny Saturday, but he just lacked those few cm to succeed. In both case the defending driver is just doing his job, i.e not conceding the racing line to the attacking car. That's called defensive driving and is all right in the rules as far as I know.

nice find..... at 1.45 you can see some blocking/"dirty driving" from Kristensen...err err I mean defending his line against a illegaly faster and overtaking peugeot....why didnt the marshalls at least put a stop & go on the peugeot?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

nice find..... at 1.45 you can see some blocking/"dirty driving" from Kristensen...err err I mean defending his line against a illegaly faster and overtaking peugeot....why didnt the marshalls at least put a stop & go on the peugeot?

yep, noted that too, but in this case he only put himself in trouble. There must also be footage from silverstone this year, when the number two car, already out of contention, made life ever so carefully much more difficult for the leading Peugeot. but as we know, Audi drivers are heroes, and Poo-joe drivers are French.

[Rennen]

Audi need to hire drivers that don't make hasty moves, crashing into GT cars!

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

nice find..... at 1.45 you can see some blocking/"dirty driving" from Kristensen...err err I mean defending his line against a illegaly faster and overtaking peugeot....why didnt the marshalls at least put a stop & go on the peugeot?

Indeed you can. That wasn't right and if Kristensen wasn't at least warned for this, he should have been. Doesn't have much relevance to the Montagny incident though

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Indeed you can. That wasn't right and if Kristensen wasn't at least warned for this, he should have been. Doesn't have much relevance to the Montagny incident though

That's right and nice that we agree on Imola....

So, this is my second post and as bloody rookie I am, I dare to ask a maybe naive question to the Montagny incident in silverstone with the GT-Porsche...everybody was instantly blaming and booing Montagny for it and surely he miscalculated his move a little bit, but isnt the porsche to blame also (just a little)? The porsche could have easily avoided the situation (which was dangerous for him too) by just lifting off for a moment and woudnt lost anything. What are your thoughts about it?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

That's right and nice that we agree on Imola....

So, this is my second post and as bloody rookie I am, I dare to ask a maybe naive question to the Montagny incident in silverstone with the GT-Porsche...everybody was instantly blaming and booing Montagny for it and surely he miscalculated his move a little bit, but isnt the porsche to blame also (just a little)? The porsche could have easily avoided the situation (which was dangerous for him too) by just lifting off for a moment and woudnt lost anything. What are your thoughts about it?

it was not a Porsche at Silverstone, but a formula Le Mans car, if I am not mistaken the white JMB entry. And yes, on a straight line the slower cars are not supposed to slow down. Lifting might have caused a chain reaction as the incident took place when the cars were still very close together.

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by henk4

it was not a Porsche at Silverstone, but a formula Le Mans car, if I am not mistaken the white JMB entry. And yes, on a straight line the slower cars are not supposed to slow down. Lifting might have caused a chain reaction as the incident took place when the cars were still very close together.

thanks for answering, you are right it wasnt a porsche...

[chernaudi]

The issue here is that Peugeot has a shady history with team orders/blocking tactics the past couple of years and not many like or have much tolerance for Quesnel's WRC-bred "win at all costs" attitude.

Also, Montagy has driven LMPs since at least 2000 (for DAMS Cadillac that year), and especially in '08-'10 made many boneheaded moves in the ALMS and LMS due to aggressive driving, with some commentators taking what seemed to be dim view of his driving tactics, including some at PLM this weekend. Of course, some of these are the same people who wanted Ant Davidson's head for his off-color comments at LM in '10, which Davidson, to his credit, apologized for soon after, which is a big reason why race drivers shouldn't be interviewed immediately after they get out of the car But that's beside the point.

I think that there's a big anti-Peugeot bias because of their past actions and driver/team attitudes, and they still appear arrogant and cocky at times. Reading what I've read since Saturday, a small part of me want's Franck's head, but we have to be rational about this. I know that his "I didn't move left" comment has riled people, but we have to wonder what Franck implied/meant by it. Was it not moving left relative to the racing line, or he didn't move left with an intent to block?

And even if he was blocking, which he's entitled to make one not particularly dangerous move to defend his position, I doubt he meant to trigger that accident, and with the bad visibility out of the coupes, I think there was a chance that he didn't even see Romain, and neither Dumas and Montangy saw the Porsche, hence the issue/questions I have with both the 908 and the R18.

I know that it's easy to blame Peugeot for this based on their shady history with stuff like that, but we do have to portion blame properly here, and unless I hear otherwise as far as a confirmation of blame, I see it like this: Franck moved over, possibly to defend his position, possibly to get back on the main racing line, whatever, and might not have seen Romain. Romain reacted, as from the onboard, it seemed that the Pug was a bit close for comfort, and I believe that both thought that they cleared the Porsche, and Dumas just got the short end of the stick on that exchange. Simply put, a racing accident that will always have a chance of happening when two ultra-competitive guys are fighting for the lead and there are cars running at the same terminal velocities and these guys are still used to having LMP1s with about 100 more bhp and with roofs over their heads.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Audi need to hire drivers that don't make hasty moves, crashing into GT cars!

Well, I think you allude to a good point. Davidson is still catching grief over the Corvette incident last year, but Audis have literally been slamming into GT cars all season long. Instead of apologizing to the GT runners, we get Ullrich blubbering nonsense. Wasn't it Dumas who was slamming the Amateur drivers at Le Mans? Well, the GTC Porsche was doing all the right things and he got his world rocked by a Dumas move.

Sometimes Peugeot causes their own grief with their comments, but I think sometimes the media is very favorable to Audi to the point that they blame Peugeot even for things that are obviously not their fault. Maybe Audi has earned a free pass over the years, but after all the things that have happened this year, I don't think it is fair to coverup all the mistakes by Audi.

On an unrelated note, was there any complaints about the Audi headlights during this past race weekend?

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The issue here is that Peugeot has a shady history with team orders/blocking tactics the past couple of years and not many like or have much tolerance for Quesnel's WRC-bred "win at all costs" attitude.

Also, Montagy has driven LMPs since at least 2000 (for DAMS Cadillac that year), and especially in '08-'10 made many boneheaded moves in the ALMS and LMS due to aggressive driving, with some commentators taking what seemed to be dim view of his driving tactics, including some at PLM this weekend. Of course, some of these are the same people who wanted Ant Davidson's head for his off-color comments at LM in '10, which Davidson, to his credit, apologized for soon after, which is a big reason why race drivers shouldn't be interviewed immediately after they get out of the car But that's beside the point.

I think that there's a big anti-Peugeot bias because of their past actions and driver/team attitudes, and they still appear arrogant and cocky at times. Reading what I've read since Saturday, a small part of me want's Franck's head, but we have to be rational about this. I know that his "I didn't move left" comment has riled people, but we have to wonder what Franck implied/meant by it. Was it not moving left relative to the racing line, or he didn't move left with an intent to block?

And even if he was blocking, which he's entitled to make one not particularly dangerous move to defend his position, I doubt he meant to trigger that accident, and with the bad visibility out of the coupes, I think there was a chance that he didn't even see Romain, and neither Dumas and Montangy saw the Porsche, hence the issue/questions I have with both the 908 and the R18.

I know that it's easy to blame Peugeot for this based on their shady history with stuff like that, but we do have to portion blame properly here, and unless I hear otherwise as far as a confirmation of blame, I see it like this: Franck moved over, possibly to defend his position, possibly to get back on the main racing line, whatever, and might not have seen Romain. Romain reacted, as from the onboard, it seemed that the Pug was a bit close for comfort, and I believe that both thought that they cleared the Porsche, and Dumas just got the short end of the stick on that exchange. Simply put, a racing accident that will always have a chance of happening when two ultra-competitive guys are fighting for the lead and there are cars running at the same terminal velocities and these guys are still used to having LMP1s with about 100 more bhp and with roofs over their heads.

I don't think Peugeot has a more shady history than audi, audi are no saints, they did the same tricks/tactics too...but its better covered up as a result of their marketing, promoting and lobbying all the years (something in which audi is very good gernerally).

For example an audi-promotion-man like Hindy, his reactions to the Dumas incident were so exposing....his first/intuitive comment was rather towards its Dumas faults/racing accident then it seems he suddenly remembered where he is getting his checks from and his press-mobile and tried to find
reasons why its more up to Montagny than Dumas.

[gregtummer]

Audi had the rear of their cars covered up in the garages for this event.

Is this standard operating procedure for Audi or were they trying out something special for Petit Le Mans?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Audi had the rear of their cars covered up in the garages for this event.

Is this standard operating procedure for Audi or were they trying out something special for Petit Le Mans?

they routinely cover the engine bay and the front section when the body parts are off.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The issue here is that Peugeot has a shady history with team orders/blocking tactics the past couple of years and not many like or have much tolerance for Quesnel's WRC-bred "win at all costs" attitude.

Also, Montagy has driven LMPs since at least 2000 (for DAMS Cadillac that year), and especially in '08-'10 made many boneheaded moves in the ALMS and LMS due to aggressive driving, with some commentators taking what seemed to be dim view of his driving tactics, including some at PLM this weekend. Of course, some of these are the same people who wanted Ant Davidson's head for his off-color comments at LM in '10, which Davidson, to his credit, apologized for soon after, which is a big reason why race drivers shouldn't be interviewed immediately after they get out of the car But that's beside the point.

I think that there's a big anti-Peugeot bias because of their past actions and driver/team attitudes, and they still appear arrogant and cocky at times. Reading what I've read since Saturday, a small part of me want's Franck's head, but we have to be rational about this. I know that his "I didn't move left" comment has riled people, but we have to wonder what Franck implied/meant by it. Was it not moving left relative to the racing line, or he didn't move left with an intent to block?

And even if he was blocking, which he's entitled to make one not particularly dangerous move to defend his position, I doubt he meant to trigger that accident, and with the bad visibility out of the coupes, I think there was a chance that he didn't even see Romain, and neither Dumas and Montangy saw the Porsche, hence the issue/questions I have with both the 908 and the R18.

I know that it's easy to blame Peugeot for this based on their shady history with stuff like that, but we do have to portion blame properly here, and unless I hear otherwise as far as a confirmation of blame, I see it like this: Franck moved over, possibly to defend his position, possibly to get back on the main racing line, whatever, and might not have seen Romain. Romain reacted, as from the onboard, it seemed that the Pug was a bit close for comfort, and I believe that both thought that they cleared the Porsche, and Dumas just got the short end of the stick on that exchange. Simply put, a racing accident that will always have a chance of happening when two ultra-competitive guys are fighting for the lead and there are cars running at the same terminal velocities and these guys are still used to having LMP1s with about 100 more bhp and with roofs over their heads.

In WRC there are no possibilities for blocking, and team orders can only be issued to such an extent that a driver higher placed in a particular rallye will let the title contender go past to get more points in the overall standings, but that is about it. And whatever you may say about Quesnel's attitude, teams led by him were quite successful

As far as the reputation of Peugeot is concerned, I can't help thinking that this reputation has been largely created on forums like this which appear to have a mostly Audi oriented attendence. Elsewhere somebody produced footage of the Imola Race, and TKs actions (and those at Silverstone) would perfectly match in what in generally alleged to be the normal Peugeot attitude.

I have personally very good contacts with the Peugeot press people (Cecile told my exactly why Pagenaud's first stint at Silverstone was so slow), and that they appear cocky and arrogant, is possibly also due to the fact that few people speak French (I do), and also that many people will put the general label for French people on the Peugeot people too. Do you have any personal experience to substantiate your allegation that the Peugeot people are cocky or arrogant or are you just repeating a "popular" opinion as the truth? The only thing you can say is that they are professional and sometimes people (also us press mosquitos and papparazzi) get in the way. The same goes for the Audi people, if they are working, do not disturb, otherwise they are easy to access (speaking German also helps)

I will not repeat here all the arguments why I think Montagny was not blocking, you can read those in the posts above. I will repeat though what I said first thing after the incident happpened: "Words will be spoken" and that is exactly what happened, possibly much too short after the incident...(Dr. Ulrich?)

I share your analysis that the accident was a "racing incident" and so did race control. So therefore I loathe the suggestions in general that because of the fact that Montagny was involved, it is not quite a racing incident, but again a proof of Peugeot hooliganism. And I can personally sympathise which drivers who get a bit frustrated, when they drive their heart out only to see a substantial advantage that they themselves created, being eroded in one lap, just because of some stupide incident that causes a full course yellow.

What I do hope is that both teams will behave professionally again in Zhuhai, because they need each other to present a thrilling race to the people. If one would pull out, top class endurance racing will be dead, until at least one other factory is going to be willing to spend 100 million dollar plus per year.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

In WRC there are no possibilities for blocking, and team orders can only be issued to such an extent that a driver higher placed in a particular rallye will let the title contender go past to get more points in the overall standings, but that is about it. And whatever you may say about Quesnel's attitude, teams led by him were quite successful

For me team orders make sense at the end of the season, but not during the very first rally of the season like Quesnel ordered during the Monte-Carlo rally this year.

See http://www.racer.com/peugeot-defends...rticle/194803/

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

For me team orders make sense at the end of the season, but not during the very first rally of the season like Quesnel ordered during the Monte-Carlo rally this year.

See http://www.racer.com/peugeot-defends...rticle/194803/

The explanation is right there in the article that you link to. Sarrazin was not doing a full season.....so better let the guy (who is British hence we did not hear much fuss about it from our anglo-saxon friends I suppose ) who has a chance for the championship take the most points as possible.
(and this was not a WRC rallye, BTW)

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

For example an audi-promotion-man like Hindy, his reactions to the Dumas incident were so exposing....his first/intuitive comment was rather towards its Dumas faults/racing accident then it seems he suddenly remembered where he is getting his checks from and his press-mobile and tried to find
reasons why its more up to Montagny than Dumas.

Well, I did the same thing, and I'm not getting anything from Audi (and would never buy one of their cars). I just realized what had actually happened after the replay.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

and this was not a WRC rallye, BTW

In that case... the Acropolis Rally this year where Ogier was favoured over Loeb.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In that case... the Acropolis Rally this year where Ogier was favoured over Loeb.

and why?
And is Citroen paying the drivers to drive for them, or are the drivers paying to drive for Citroen?

[Mal]

When was the last time no Audi finished a race it started (P1 class)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Mal

When was the last time no Audi finished a race it started (P1 class)

Technically Belle Isle in '08 in the ALMS, but actually one crashed out and one was disqualified post-race.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Technically Belle Isle in '08 in the ALMS, but actually one crashed out and one was disqualified post-race.

Good memory! I also think that was the last race Intersport won in P1.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Technically Belle Isle in '08 in the ALMS, but actually one crashed out and one was disqualified post-race.

I guess the car finished then even if it wasnt classified - what about before then?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Mal

I guess the car finished then even if it wasnt classified - what about before then?

probably we have to go back to the Rosemeier/Stuck area...