ALMS Round 9/ILMC Round 6: Petit Le Mans 29 Sep -1 Oct

[haribo]

Originally Posted by henk4

yep, the concept that two parties are good is inconceivable....

What about two evil parties

[henk4]

Originally Posted by haribo

What about two evil parties

Audi is good by definition....(they are a premium brand)

[gwyllion]

Audi refer to the R18 in carbon black as Darth Vader, which would make it pretty evil...

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Audi refer to the R18 in carbon black as Darth Vader, which would make it pretty evil...

German sense of humor?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

For example an audi-promotion-man like Hindy, his reactions to the Dumas incident were so exposing....his first/intuitive comment was rather towards its Dumas faults/racing accident then it seems he suddenly remembered where he is getting his checks from and his press-mobile and tried to find
reasons why its more up to Montagny than Dumas.

I thought Nissan and Aston were the ones paying Hindy's bills Audi is just his obvious preference over Pugs

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Audi refer to the R18 in carbon black as Darth Vader, which would make it pretty evil...

It's rather Duffy Duck than Darth Vader (especially in black paint)...maybe a Darthy Duck..

[Peugeot908]

BUT-as much as I try to like them its hard. They are definitely arrogant especially F.Montagny and I witnessed this first hand.
The only fans they had at the podium ceremony were the people that traveled with them! I tried talking to them several times and they are unfriendly. Not to mention they act like you are bothering them.

Everybody likes to hate on Montagny. I'm American and a huge Peugeot fan. I met him twice at Sebring this year. The first time was on Thursday Evening before practice. I was standing at the Peugeot Tent and Anthony Davidson was out talking to fans. I had a 10 minute conversation with Davidson (Who is totally awesome and friendly) before leaving to watch practice. I saw Montagny out of the corner of my eye, approached and greeted him as "Monsieur Montagny" as I know a little bit of French. I asked him to sign my ticket and he was delighted to. I asked him if he spoke English and he responded "Ya man". I Thanked him and we shook hands and headed out.

The next day I was at the Peugeot tent at the autograph session (Gene, Wurz, Davidson, Lamy, Sarrazin, Montagny) The only one I did not talk to was Lamy. I was wearing an Anti-Audi shirt (White shirt with a slash through the Audi logo) All the Peugeot drivers loved it and gave me a thumbs up. Sarrazin and Montagny especially liked it. Due to a hold up in the autographing of posters I was waiting at the end of the line talking to Montagny. A security guard started yelling at me to move long, Montagny stood up for me and told her that I was waiting for him to sign the poster. The security guard backed off. I thanked Montagny once again and he remembered me from the previous day.

Montagny is my favorite Peugeot driver and I was so happy to meet him and have a positive experience with him. The LMS/ALMS drivers in general tend to be a lot cooler than the Nascar drivers. I have met a few Nascar drivers and most of them are pricks. After the race I briefly spoke to Pagenuad and Brabham and congratulated them on their 2nd place finish (And told them I hope to see them in the 908 soon) they were really nice and overjoyed I took the time to tell them that.

-Peugeot908

[ubrben]

Great week, great race.

Dumas's fault IMHO - the only reason Montagny slowed was to pass the GT car - if you make a move in that situation you are responsible. It was quite funny watching him tell anyone who would listen that it was FM's fault - no-one seemed convinced.

Something that probably got missed in the fuss last week was a nice little GT AoP (note, not BoP...) adjustment. So here's the thing, Team A spends a lot of time optimising pitstops and consistently has an advantage in fuel fill time through good solid engineering. Team B realises that this is costing them and invests in similar technology.

At Road America Teams A and B dominate the race and Team C starts to get annoyed that they're getting creamed in the pits (and on track, but that's another story). So given Team C's resources (which are larger than Team B's and arguably A's also) do you think they, A, invested the money in similar technology or, B, did they whinge to the organisors and get a one time only, increase in fuel rig flow restrictor available to no-one else and not provided for under any existing regulation?

http://www.imsaracing.net/2011/ALMS/...MS%2011-34.pdf

You didn't think it was A did you...

Ben

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Great week, great race.

Dumas's fault IMHO - the only reason Montagny slowed was to pass the GT car - if you make a move in that situation you are responsible. It was quite funny watching him tell anyone who would listen that it was FM's fault - no-one seemed convinced.

Something that probably got missed in the fuss last week was a nice little GT AoP (note, not BoP...) adjustment. So here's the thing, Team A spends a lot of time optimising pitstops and consistently has an advantage in fuel fill time through good solid engineering. Team B realises that this is costing them and invests in similar technology.

At Road America Teams A and B dominate the race and Team C starts to get annoyed that they're getting creamed in the pits (and on track, but that's another story). So given Team C's resources (which are larger than Team B's and arguably A's also) do you think they, A, invested the money in similar technology or, B, did they whinge to the organisors and get a one time only, increase in fuel rig flow restrictor available to no-one else and not provided for under any existing regulation?

http://www.imsaracing.net/2011/ALMS/...MS%2011-34.pdf

You didn't think it was A did you...

Ben

A = BMW
B= Ferrari
C= Corvette

If I'm not mistaking. Just to make the equation understandable.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by NelisB

A = BMW
B= Ferrari
C= Corvette

If I'm not mistaking. Just to make the equation understandable.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment...

Ben

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Great week, great race.

Dumas's fault IMHO - the only reason Montagny slowed was to pass the GT car - if you make a move in that situation you are responsible. It was quite funny watching him tell anyone who would listen that it was FM's fault - no-one seemed convinced.

Something that probably got missed in the fuss last week was a nice little GT AoP (note, not BoP...) adjustment. So here's the thing, Team A spends a lot of time optimising pitstops and consistently has an advantage in fuel fill time through good solid engineering. Team B realises that this is costing them and invests in similar technology.

At Road America Teams A and B dominate the race and Team C starts to get annoyed that they're getting creamed in the pits (and on track, but that's another story). So given Team C's resources (which are larger than Team B's and arguably A's also) do you think they, A, invested the money in similar technology or, B, did they whinge to the organisors and get a one time only, increase in fuel rig flow restrictor available to no-one else and not provided for under any existing regulation?

http://www.imsaracing.net/2011/ALMS/...MS%2011-34.pdf

You didn't think it was A did you...

Ben

So your whinging about team C being allowed to refuel at the same pace as team A. Sounds fair to me; puts the burden of pit performance on the team not the rate the fuel enters the tank. C team consistently wins pit challenges and if I remember right team A at Lemans was looking longingly over at team C only wishing they could be as efficient and even stated as much. If it weren’t for very generous BoP or AoP team A would never see a podium again so they should be thankful and shut the F up.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by kyoung

So your whinging about team C being allowed to refuel at the same pace as team A. Sounds fair to me; puts the burden of pit performance on the team not the rate the fuel enters the tank. C team consistently wins pit challenges and if I remember right team A at Lemans was looking longingly over at team C only wishing they could be as efficient and even stated as much. If it weren’t for very generous BoP or AoP team A would never see a podium again so they should be thankful and shut the F up.

Air restrictor and weight are in the BoP, fuel fill restrictors aren't - it's that simple.

Team A weren't at Le Mans last time I checked...

Ben

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Team A weren't at Le Mans last time I checked...

Are we referring to the team or the vehicle? I would say check again.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by kyoung

C team consistently wins pit challenges and if I remember right team A at Lemans was looking longingly over at team C only wishing they could be as efficient and even stated as much.

I would say the P&M boys have been somewhat sloppy in the pits during ALMS races the past 2 seasons. Numerous penalties and lost positions.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Are we referring to the team or the vehicle? I would say check again.

Team.

Ben

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Air restrictor and weight are in the BoP, fuel fill restrictors aren't - it's that simple.

Team A weren't at Le Mans last time I checked...

Ben

IMSA equalized the time it takes to fill the cars, what’s the big deal?

No, but Team A’s fearless leader was there and a couple…ahem…A Team drivers. And I am not referring to Mr. T.

You probably missed the A cars at Lemans, they were in the garage most of the time or its possible you couldn’t tell them from the other family sedans parked around the paddock.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by joeb

I would say the P&M boys have been somewhat sloppy in the pits during ALMS races the past 2 seasons. Numerous penalties and lost positions.

I agree, but the fact that their car took longer to fill didn’t help.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by kyoung

IMSA equalized the time it takes to fill the cars, what’s the big deal?

No, but Team A’s fearless leader was there and a couple…ahem…A Team drivers. And I am not referring to Mr. T.

You probably missed the A cars at Lemans, they were in the garage most of the time or its possible you couldn’t tell them from the other family sedans parked around the paddock.

The fuel flow from the pump should be the same for all cars in each class. If Corvette were allowed a faster flow by way of a larger restrictor then they have been given an unfair advantage.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Mal

The fuel flow from the pump should be the same for all cars in each class. If Corvette were allowed a faster flow by way of a larger restrictor then they have been given an unfair advantage.

If their car is filling at the same rate, how is that an advantage?

[kyoung]

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and…

Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?

Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.

Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it’s louder? Is it any louder?

Nigel Tufnel: Well, it’s one louder, isn’t it? It’s not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You’re on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you’re on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?

Marty DiBergi: I don’t know.

Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.

Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.

Marty DiBergi: Why don’t you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by kyoung

If their car is filling at the same rate, how is that an advantage?

I would think it is pretty obvious, but if BMW and whoever spent the money and time to develop a new fueling system legally and Corvette is given the same fuel flow advantage for free just by begging for it from the officials, well, that's an unfair advantage. It's unfair to the teams that legitimately developed a better way of fueling and it is also unfair to the other teams without the technology who were not given the rules break.

I wonder if we will have a Corvette sponsored feature on the telecasts next year showing Fehan playing politics and/or straight up begging for favorable rules. That would be a pretty impressive show. Their sponsored segments having Fehan talking about the pop-up headlights is getting a bit old. It's time to spice up those segments!

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by AGD

I would think it is pretty obvious, but if BMW and whoever spent the money and time to develop a new fueling system legally and Corvette is given the same fuel flow advantage for free just by begging for it from the officials, well, that's an unfair advantage. It's unfair to the teams that legitimately developed a better way of fueling and it is also unfair to the other teams without the technology who were not given the rules break.

I wonder if we will have a Corvette sponsored feature on the telecasts next year showing Fehan playing politics and/or straight up begging for favorable rules. That would be a pretty impressive show. Their sponsored segments having Fehan talking about the pop-up headlights is getting a bit old. It's time to spice up those segments!

I would think so too, I guess the humor above is lost on you, you see 10 and 11 are the same in this case.

I thought the whole point of regulating fuel flow was so nobody would have an advantage, so trying to circumvent the intent /spirit of the rules with hi-tech refueling systems is a pointless endeavor. In the same manner it is pointless to increase the power of a car because it will only be taken away by BoP anyway. A Team begged its way to very generous BoP; you don’t seem to be offended by that.

If GM sponsors the telecast they should be able to broadcast whatever they want, including Fehan talking about Corvette tech; you can always watch something else if it offends you. I would much rather hear someone talk about an actual GT than the “deficient dynamics” of family sedans.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by kyoung

I thought the whole point of regulating fuel flow was so nobody would have an advantage, so trying to circumvent the intent /spirit of the rules with hi-tech refueling systems is a pointless endeavor. In the same manner it is pointless to increase the power of a car because it will only be taken away by BoP anyway. A Team begged its way to very generous BoP; you don’t seem to be offended by that.

If IMSA wanted to make sure that nobody had an advantage, they would have given everyone who did not have the new fueling technology a fuel flow advantage. That's not what they did. They just gave it to Corvette. Should we expect any better from the roulette wheel of regulations that IMSA uses? I guess not, but it's messed up whether it is expected or not.

As far as your second point about power, I don't agree with the whole structure of GT2 regulations. Trying to equalize the performance of a wide range of different types of cars is highly bush league, but it seems that fans are perfectly happy with "Made for TV" production that rivals Camp Cucamonga in terms of lameness. So, no, I don't agree with it. This stuff can't be equalized in any proper sense so it just becomes a matter of politics and such. That's not what racing is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about building a better car and proving it on race day.

[gregtummer]

We should start a thread on trying to convince the ACO/FIA to keep Petit Le Mans in the WEC next year.

I'll start one of there is significant interest.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

We should start a thread on trying to convince the ACO/FIA to keep Petit Le Mans in the WEC next year.

I'll start one of there is significant interest.

I don't think the ACO or FIA really cares about what we think. They know there is tremendous fan interest at Petit, but there are other issues at play here. Appeasing the manufacturers interest to race in South America is primary issue for 2012 it seems. There is also the issue of TV rights and how to deal with the issues of the different regulations of each series. There is still some confusion on how the latter point will be dealt with at Sebring.

On an unrelated note, what a bad week for VAG diesels in the US. First the Audi issue at Petit and now I see that VW has ordered dealers to stop selling TDI Jettas and Golfs for a fuel leak issue. There is also a recall for older models. Ouch.