Is GTC (GT3.5) a thing and if not should it be one?

[Speed-King]

So yeah, headline kinda says it.

While GT3 is working rather fine in the bigger European countries, GT-series in smaller economies are struggling badly, with only very few teams being able to afford the latest and greatest GT3s these days - and there seem to be some signs that the powers that be are working on a new entry level GT-category to remedy this situation. What got me thinking about this is the introduction of a GTC-class for one-make-series-cars from Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche in British GT. Now, this could be a UK-only kind of solution, but with comparable classes springing up in different countries (Italy always had one, but nowadays also Belgium and Sweden), maybe it's time to establish a common ruleset and BoP for this kind of cars.

Here's what Mr. Ratel had to say about the subject a few months ago (in German, but I'll translate the important part):

Q: Do you see the possibility of a new support series for GT3?

A: We always think about that. [...] There would be an interesting mix between the Lamborghini SuperTrofeo, Ferrari Challange, or the Porsche-Cup-series, but then you'd be stepping on the manufacturers' toes and those are very keen to protect their own one-make-series. I don't want to get in trouble with them and that's why it's better to leave things as they are now.

That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement, but nevertheless, the SRO-run British GT-championship has just set out to introduce such a class. We know that Ratel would theoretically like to see something like this, so maybe (just maybe) he managed to secure the manufacturers' 'go-ahead' for such a class.(?)

What do you guys think - will we see a standardized ruleset and BoP for this kind of cars, or should this simply be left to the national series? Also, would you like to see this become a stand-alone category a la the old (2006-ish) GT3-series?

Finally, what cars other than the three aforementioned ones could fit into such a category?

[Maelochs]

Sounds like a specific solution to a specific situation in a specific region. Why try to make it universal, so it then becomes a general problem in regions where it is not needed?

In most areas, dividing up potential teams into ever smaller series sounds like a good way to kill those series---a bunch of six-car grids with no fan- or sponsor appeal where there might have been a 15-car grid otherwise.

You say this is an adaptation to specific situation--good. That sounds sensible. Let the Eskimos wear parkas and the Polynesians, sarongs. No need for a fur sarong so everybody suffers.

[Speed-King]

Oh, I am not saying that every series would have to use this, just that there would be a readymade solution available to them should the need for it arise, rather than having to figure things out on their own.

Also, there is the very real problem of people with not enough experience jumping into GT3s too early on. A feeder series with GTC-type of cars might be a good intermediary step for them, just as GT3 was intented as a stepping stone to the 'big' FIA GT-series back in 2006.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

So yeah, headline kinda says it.

While GT3 is working rather fine in the bigger European countries, GT-series in smaller economies are struggling badly, with only very few teams being able to afford the latest and greatest GT3s these days - and there seem to be some signs that the powers that be are working on a new entry level GT-category to remedy this situation. What got me thinking about this is the introduction of a GTC-class for one-make-series-cars from Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche in British GT. Now, this could be a UK-only kind of solution, but with comparable classes springing up in different countries (Italy always had one, but nowadays also Belgium and Sweden), maybe it's time to establish a common ruleset and BoP for this kind of cars.

Here's what Mr. Ratel had to say about the subject a few months ago (in German, but I'll translate the important part):



That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement, but nevertheless, the SRO-run British GT-championship has just set out to introduce such a class. We know that Ratel would theoretically like to see something like this, so maybe (just maybe) he managed to secure the manufacturers' 'go-ahead' for such a class.(?)

What do you guys think - will we see a standardized ruleset and BoP for this kind of cars, or should this simply be left to the national series? Also, would you like to see this become a stand-alone category a la the old (2006-ish) GT3-series?

Finally, what cars other than the three aforementioned ones could fit into such a category?

Isn't it then a defacto GT4? Should a sub class be built around GT4 rather than a truncated GT3?

[JoestForEver]

Actually, the purpose of creating GT3 back in 2006 was to make GT cup cars like Carrera Cup, 430 Challenge, Super Trofeo compete together for national GT series. Therefore, I don't think creating another class based on GT Cup cars will do any good. By the way, GT4 is a bit too slow for their power and size. People prefer touring cars to them.

[Speed-King]

Actually, actually GT3 started with the European series, with the class only making its way to the national championships afterwards.

But you're right, I wouldn't expect big things from GT4 anymore, either. So that's why I think GTC could be an interesting fresh start.

[Maelochs]

So long as all those single-series casrs could compete evenly without modification, it should work, but if the cars needed BoP or different aero or something, it might be unpopular--not sure the gentleman drivers would want to make any extra investment in parts and engineering time to make changes.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

So long as all those single-series casrs could compete evenly without modification, it should work, but if the cars needed BoP or different aero or something, it might be unpopular--not sure the gentleman drivers would want to make any extra investment in parts and engineering time to make changes.

Right, and that's why I say there should be standardized regulations and kits that take away the development and BoP-work from the teams and give it to interested tuners. It would be a re-do of the original GT3-idea, though ideally without the cost escalation this time around.

[hondafan37]

The McLaren 650S has had its racing debut in British GT Cup.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=30874

[ger80]

Would also be a nice place to recycle old GTE cars

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by ger80

Would also be a nice place to recycle old GTE cars

The running costs don't go down just because they are old... though I supposse one could save some on the engine side, by either detuning or switching to a prod-spec engine.

[tux]

Is this not what GT4 was designed for?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by tux

Is this not what GT4 was designed for?

Naw, I'm thinking more of what GT3 was designed for before it all ended up way different than anybody had thought. Think this not this. Though GT4 has admittedly somewhat crept in that direction as well. But then, GT4 as a whole is less than a success story (British GT is actually the laudable exception), so I think there's room for a relaunch of the original GT3 philosophy, especially since the cars are already there. "Instant series. Just add BoP."

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

"Instant series. Just add BoP."

Hives. Not sure what they are but I fear breaking out in them now.

I am on the wrong side of the Atlantic, and I probably could easily find the answer, but if I may ask indulgence-is there a short explanation of GT4 that someone can supply?

[Speed-King]

Think Conti GS, but having suffered/enjoyed a spell of rapid development for a bit... also kinda heavy on the Ginettas that don't race in Conti.

Only two series that have consistently heathy-ish fields re British GT with around ten cars and the new for 2014 European Series that has close to 20 cars, though a good part of those came into the series by gobbling up an Italian one make series for Ginetta G50s. VLN gets decent fields on occasion, though not consistently... sometimes it's less than a handful of cars, mostly Astons there.

[skycafe]

well, ok... The Aston part I figured out from your posting of a results table. Are these cars built in shops, or are they turnkey bought cars?

Oh, and thanks for indulging me.

[Speed-King]

In theory they go by the single-tuner/manufacturer-built model that they also had/have in GT3...

Not sure that's applied across the board though. The Camaros, e.g. were originally Riley-built, but have been extensively modified by the Dutch team running them over here.

[skycafe]

This will be a yank question-can Billy Bob and Horace build a car in their garage and run it?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by skycafe

This will be a yank question-can Billy Bob and Horace build a car in their garage and run it?

If no one else has built one of the same type and the manufacturer is okay with it, yes. So actually: Probably not.

[Rodger Davies]

GT4 is often regarded as 'unsuccessful' or at least less successful than GT3, bit if you look around the world there are hundreds of Ginetta, Aston and BMW GT4 cars racing, and plenty of 370Zs, Camaros and 911s too. Everywhere from VLN to US to Asian series'. They might not be in 100% GT4 spec, but they all have a similar base and philosophy.

Personally, I love watching those cars, really enjoyed the European Championship race supporting Spa this year and much prefer the class to this GTC idea.

That said, I do understand GTC as a concept closer to the original intention for GT3 and can see why it would become attractive, but I just fear more class subdivision and 'everyone gets a trophy' attitudes (see also Porsche Cup class in PWC).

[tux]

The more i think about it, the more i think, does anything actually need changing?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by tux

The more i think about it, the more i think, does anything actually need changing?

IMO not.

[Speed-King]

World Challenge CEO Scott Bove on the series new "Cup" class:

Bove, meanwhile, is bullish for the category’s future. While it will be Porsche-only in 2015, he hasn’t necessarily ruled out expansion in the years to come, depending on the level of interest.

“Since that announcement, I’ve gotten approached by other manufacturers saying that they’ve got a car that is a Cup-type car,” he said.

“You see how you can create this Cup class. The manufacturers see World Challenge as providing a ‘vehicle’ for their customers to race their product.

“It’s only a vision but can you imagine having an Aston Martin GT4 Cup, an ACR-X Cup car and a Porsche Cup car competing in a GT Cup class, all together?”

Link

[kyoung]

Once you start mixing Cup cars together it’s not Cup racing anymore and it introduces all the problems of GT3, namely BoP. Manufacturers can count on who is going to win in a Porsche Cup race…a Porsche.

I would like to see showroom stock sports cars gutted of interior, roll bar, fire extinguisher, slicks and raced. No BoP, no or very slight modifications. Inexpensive and accessible to almost anyone, that’s my idea of what GT4 should be.

What you want is a rational GT3, they just need to fix the one they already have. But that’s always been the case with GT1, GT2, GT3, and GT4, the minute it starts to fall apart they start something new, enough already.

[Speed-King]

GT3 isn't falling apart (yet?), it just has very much outgrown what it used to be... and there hasn't been a real replacement.

I would like to see showroom stock sports cars gutted of interior, roll bar, fire extinguisher, slicks and raced. No BoP, no or very slight modifications. Inexpensive and accessible to almost anyone, that’s my idea of what GT4 should be.

That actually exists in VLN's V-(=production car)classes....they invariable tend to become single make contests...