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Old 9 Feb 2010, 19:44 (Ref:2630117)   #1
arakis
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Rubbing is Racing, where is the line?

Whats your opinion about bumping and rubing in racing, how much is too much,

Is it ok, to use your competior as a brake, like Melo did at Sebring 2007!
Or to bump the car in front of you just as they exit a corner to loosen them up, to easily pass at the streight.

If the rules alow rubing, where is the line, in intent, or the severity of the incident.

I am of the oppinion that there should be no banging at all, and if there is some, if a position is gained from an intentional bang, the position should be returned, and if a crash folows banging as in Laguna last year, both competiotos should be severly punished!

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Old 9 Feb 2010, 19:52 (Ref:2630128)   #2
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Rubbing is racing! I am fine with getting someone lose as you come off a corner to gain an advantage on the straight especially if the car behind is much quicker but keeps getting blocked at every corner. Racing would be way too boring if you pull the please the please don't touch my car card..If you can't handle a little adversity you shouldn't be racing and if you are getting bumped from behind it should be a warning your holding someone up and you need to do something about it.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:02 (Ref:2630136)   #3
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yes but that totaly negates deffensive driving, if someone is much quicker then you he will be able to get by without hiting you, and if its for position, there is apsolutly no reason why you should let someone pass! whats the point of preparing and runing a car, if somone simply uses brute force to get by! In tight circuits, expecialy street circuits, comon in ALMS, there are walls everywere, its is very easy to crash even if someone doesent tuch you
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:10 (Ref:2630140)   #4
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I have no problem with defensive driving and I wouldn't advocate just letting cars pass. I do think when there is a car that is clearly better on that day that has been riding the car in front of it through endless blocks then if you need to give them a bump to get by that is racing.
Case in point Laguna last year he Corvette was much faster than the Porsche and tried everything to pass but all the blocks were just too much. I'd rather see the faster car win and if it takes a little bump to move someone that is using blocks excessively then so be it.
Granted this incident didn't turn out well but I believe the bump in the last corner was racing.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:18 (Ref:2630144)   #5
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arakis has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
but that exacly something I want to know, if the rules alow some rubing and banging, there will always be a hurt party, that will return the favor twice as much, expecialy if the 2nd party is a Pis**d of german. If there are no clear rules, it will make for exciting watching, but dangerus for the drivers!

If you ban, or penalyse intentional bumps, there won't be any seasaw effect
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:27 (Ref:2630152)   #6
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In my opinion, rubbing is racing. Touring car racing. Laguna is an excellent example why it should have no place in sportscars.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:29 (Ref:2630154)   #7
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Well in the end racing is a dangerous job. The drives know this when they get in the cars. There will be rubbing and bumping for position racing woudln't be nearly as entertaining without it.
I think the it would only be excessive and warrant a huge penalty/ban if you intentionally put someone into a wall or out of the race. There is a big difference between a bump to get someone loose coming out of a corner and intentionally running someone off the track. That is something that is obvious to spot as well so there really is no need to ban any form or bumping or rubbing.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:37 (Ref:2630157)   #8
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There will be rubbing and bumping for position racing woudln't be nearly as entertaining without it.
maybe, but there are a few example were it works very well, F1, Le Mans....
in F1 its absolutly heavily penalized, and the fan base is bigger then all other motorsport champs put together. (I know this is an exaguration. but it is the most watched sport in the world, a single F1 race is only watched by more people at the football world finals (once every 4 years) (thats soccer for our friend from across the pond)
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:46 (Ref:2630163)   #9
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I thought Melo's pass on Bergmeister was questionable. The Laguna Seca affair with bumping from behind, squeezing into the pit wall and ensuing crash was not O.K. at all. That's not what sports car racing is about (and know that I absolutely love BTCC). Needs to be prevented from happening again.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 20:49 (Ref:2630165)   #10
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maybe, but there are a few example were it works very well, F1, Le Mans....
in F1 its absolutly heavily penalized, and the fan base is bigger then all other motorsport champs put together. (I know this is an exaguration. but it is the most watched sport in the world, a single F1 race is only watched by more people at the football world finals (once every 4 years) (thats soccer for our friend from across the pond)

There are alot of things to think about though when you make that statement. When you look at the big picture here in America F1 and Soccer are among the least watched sports. Racing in general isn't big here except for Nascar and that is on the decline as well but one of the things that keep people watching Nascar is the fact that the racing is extremely close and there is plenty of contact. It is just a different audience over here.
Another thing to consider is the type of series I mean there is a huge difference between ALMS and F1. You have cars of all different classes bunched up many times on smaller courses here in America. There is really no way to judge between the different series.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:11 (Ref:2630180)   #11
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the point of my statment was US is not the world, but I guess your post explains why what flies in ALMS, would never stand up in LMS.

the point was, should we watch races, for the technology of the cars, and the excelence of the drivers, or who can excecute the snikiest bump manuver, and get away with it.

For me its the former, and I would like to see the later eliminated form Sports car racing!

***Off corse Nascar is close, its basicly the same cars running around in circles, and if god forbid one got ahed too much, they pull out a safty car!!
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:36 (Ref:2630203)   #12
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Answering the original question, I think the line is where the officials say it is, if they let it happen it will happen more and more.

For me any consistent intentional nudging to gain an advantage is not the way to go, can result in a lot of costly damage and should be penalised initially by returning the place and if again by stop go or more. If nothing happens the Salo and Enge Mid Ohio situation can easily happen and that is not racing.

LMP's are certainly a no go on this in my book, for damage and safety reasons.

I prefer to see drivers use their driving and racing in traffic talents to overtake than their stock car skills.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:38 (Ref:2630208)   #13
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where to draw the line?

in the sand at Laguna Seca
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:41 (Ref:2630211)   #14
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that is often the end game.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:41 (Ref:2630212)   #15
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Rubbing is racing, fine by me. But the moments like the ALMS GT2 finish Sebring 07? and Laguna Seca 09 where of limits for me. Ok I understand it sucks really hard when you have been leading and in the last corner get passed. But driving/crashing your opponant into the wall...
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:55 (Ref:2630225)   #16
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Answering the original question, I think the line is where the officials say it is, if they let it happen it will happen more and more.

For me any consistent intentional nudging to gain an advantage is not the way to go, can result in a lot of costly damage and should be penalised initially by returning the place and if again by stop go or more. If nothing happens the Salo and Enge Mid Ohio situation can easily happen and that is not racing.

LMP's are certainly a no go on this in my book, for damage and safety reasons.

I prefer to see drivers use their driving and racing in traffic talents to overtake than their stock car skills.
Hmm, yet it is o.k. to use those stock car talents to keep them behind you!?





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Old 9 Feb 2010, 21:59 (Ref:2630226)   #17
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In my opinion, rubbing is racing. Touring car racing. Laguna is an excellent example why it should have no place in sportscars.
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The Laguna Seca affair with bumping from behind, squeezing into the pit wall and ensuing crash was not O.K. at all. That's not what sports car racing is about (and know that I absolutely love BTCC). Needs to be prevented from happening again.
Please don't confuse sports car racing with endurance racing. Fair bumping is fine to me for sub-120min tin-topped races, including the old FIA GT and particulary the new GT1 World Championship. Le Mans stuff and endurance racing in general, including >3 hour touring car races, shouldn't allow agressive rubbing at all, and should punish bumping severly. The possible exception is ALMS' relatively short street races. GT3 cars could bump a little, but with LMPs in the middle, that's not advisable either.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 22:30 (Ref:2630250)   #18
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I must be old fashioned. 'Rubbing is racing'? Not in my book. I've always worked on the basis that the majority of racing series are intended to be strictly no contact. Over the years we've seen questionable driver behaviour imported from series where contact is allowed in championships like the BTCC - and not for the better, IMHO. Any driver in front is perfectly entitled to drive defensively, provided that there isn't excessive inappropriate blocking. It's up to the supposedly skilful driver behind to get past without contact. If you want to drive dodgems, go to the fairground.

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...if you are getting bumped from behind it should be a warning your holding someone up and you need to do something about it.
I have to say this is probably one of the most disappointing comments I've ever read in the Sportscar/GT sub-forum..... But then, as I say, perhaps I'm just old-fashioned....

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Old 9 Feb 2010, 23:15 (Ref:2630278)   #19
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No, you're not.

Intentional contact has no place in road racing no matter how much people think it improves the show.
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Old 9 Feb 2010, 23:54 (Ref:2630290)   #20
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There is absolutely no reason for intentional bumping in sports car racing. Even the simple bumps running wide out of a corner when someone is passing on the outside (or you're passing on the inside) should be looked at closely by the race officials/stewards.
When driving your Porsche on the street, do you pull up beside a Corvette or Ferrari and turn into him? No, you compare cars based on performance. If all you had to do to win races was bump people off into the sand boxes at Laguna Seca or into concrete walls at Long Beach, sign me up. I'll bring my Grand-fathers Buick LeSabre and beat them all.
I can't find a video of it online but for anyone who has 2008's version of The Belle Isle Grand Prix of Detroit ALMS race, watch closely as early on there was an Audi (Luhr or Pierro I believe) trying to get by a Porsche Spyder (Timo or Romain) and into turn 1 the Porsche was defending the inside. After a couple laps of this, what did the Audi driver do, he tucked inside early on the pit straight, Porsche defended (allowed only one move) and the Audi made the outside line stick.
My point being: good drivers in the "better car" behind a good car and driver will get the pass done or else he shouldn't necessarily be proclaimed the best driver/car combo that day.

Sorry for the length of this rant, I just find "rubbin' is racin'" to be one of the most disgraceful forms of motorsport.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 00:20 (Ref:2630303)   #21
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Some of the comments here are choice !!!

What in hell do you expect when your racing at these speeds , and expected to get the best position possible ? We are only human you know , and our reactions differ from person to person , and while your at it , do ye all keep your cool "ALL" the time , or do ye slip every now and then ?

Deliberate accidents are not on at all , but you go figure what is and what isnt !!!

Ask Mika Salo what is deliberate ..... Bergmeister too , and while your at it ask Magnussan if its ok to keep poking someone up the hole and expect no reaction .

Crap happens , get over it , or go drive on train tracks or better yet bumper cars !!!

Gimme a break .

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Old 10 Feb 2010, 01:45 (Ref:2630343)   #22
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No, you're not.

Intentional contact has no place in road racing no matter how much people think it improves the show.
Thirded.

Of course determining what is intentional or avoidable is going to be fraught with difficulty, but that is not an excuse to throw up your hands and say that everything's ok. The sanctioning bodies also need to make sure to levy appropriate penalties consistently and rapidly, before the more efficient response to getting biffed is to biff back (see Laguna Seca 2009).
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 04:21 (Ref:2630381)   #23
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The first 80 years of motorsport were pretty damn clean, because if you made any contact at any real speed, there was a reasonable chance you would get dead in a hurry. So, even us humans are quite capable of keeping it very well together with the right motivation.

NO, I am NOT suggesting going back to the car and circuit standards of the '60s. However, if you really are the best driver out there, you're capable of showing it without having to resort to blocking or bumping. In fact, racing successfully without doing that crap will give you one heck of a reputation and a boatload of respect from your fellow competitors.

If contact was responsible for making that pass possible, you should have to give the spot back, or be subject to a drive-through penalty. If you damage another car through contact, that should be a stop-and-go penalty. The same should apply if you spin a guy. If you trigger someone's crash through contact, whether it started as a tap that caused a spin, or something worse, you should get a one-lap, stop-and-hold penalty. If you run someone off track or cause an accident with intent, you should be parked.

Second-time bump-and-runs to achieve a pass should result in an automatic drive-through. A driver responsible for a second spin or a second damaging contact to another car should be parked; the co-driver may do the remainder of the race so long as there are no more incidents. The second incident that causes someone's wreck, whether it was just from a tap that triggered a spin initially, should result in the car being parked.

Preemptive defensive driving is acceptable. That is, you may make one move before or at virtually the same time as your pursuer. Reactionary defensive maneuvers/outright blocks are not acceptable on-track conduct. A block as such should then require you to forfeit your position; non-compliance with such an order should result in a drive-through penalty. The same rules should apply to hip-checks that are used to maintain a position. If said hip-check actually puts the other car off the racing surface, like the AJR Porsche that was doing quite well despite missing its door getting put off the road at Mosport, the one giving the check should serve a stop-and-go penalty.

I think that this is a reasonably workable framework, and should actually be minimally intrusive in the racing, as these more significant incidents generally only happen a few times a season in the ALMS. The more minor stuff, like accidentally tagging a guy into a spin, are already penalized to a similar extent to what I have put forth here.

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Old 10 Feb 2010, 05:50 (Ref:2630407)   #24
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Rubbin' is racin' is the most infuriatingly ignorant and stupid term concerning motor racing that I've ever heard! Keep it in that cesspool from which NASCAR crawled. No, rubbing is not racing. Rubbing is football (of the American variety) and rubbing is ice hockey; rubbing is roller derby and a rugby scrum but it is definitely not racing. Nor is blocking racing and both of these actions should be recognized as undesirable and severely penalized with diligence by all motorsports officials.

Actions that would earn a driver life long banishment from one series can garner a different driver respect, an enormous fan following, and the nickname "the intimidator" in another.

As spectators, this will always relate back to what we grew up admiring as children. For those of us who’s heroes strapped smallish aluminum cigars to their bodies that were propelled by screaming V8 engines and stuck to the ground with big gumballs, it will always be obvious that endangering another driver’s health or safety is completely unacceptable. Yet, for those who’s hero was a man encased by two tons of steel, wrestling for position like a redneck scrambling to get out of the trailer park, it might not be as apparent. I was disgusted when I watched that damn German disgrace crash into Damon Hill at Adelaide in 1994. When I saw a repeat of the same repulsive behavior in 1997, I simply stopped being a part of the commercial cycle that allows F1 to exist. I have not watched a Formula 1 race since.

In the end it is up to us to decide if we want to see gladiators fight at the arena or if we would prefer to see true sportsmen be given the tools of science to play a sophisticated game within the rules. Similarly, race organizers have to decide if they want to cater to the lowest common denominator with a spectacular show in order to broaden the appeal of their series or if they want to create something morally forthright and show the intestinal fortitude to enforce a stringent set of rules.

Hmmmmm, which do you think they’ll choose, ideals or cash?


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Old 10 Feb 2010, 07:32 (Ref:2630423)   #25
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I find it very hard to believe that ANY driver worthy of the title of Driver has to lower himself to this form of cheating,no other word for it,not even "gaining an advantage".IF you cant outdrive the other driver,then he's obviously better than you think you are,it's his line.Save this appaling practice for Stock/Banger "Racing".If you cant race clean,you shouldn't be out there!!
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