Are modern F1 drivers as good a previous generations

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by wnut

3 back to back WDCs against the strongest most experienced field in history, containing more world champions than ever before! More parity rules than ever before, and greater levels of engineering skills and resources across the grid than ever before!

Yup Seb is just an ordinary plodder who got lucky.

Vettel is going to have to display his talents in something other than a Neweymobile if people are going to have confidence in him as a great like Senna. Therein lies the question mark and it's a perfectly legitimate one. By my reading noone disputes that he is at top driver amongst an upper echelon of active top drivers. Posters claiming otherwise are just poisoning the well.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by wnut

3 back to back WDCs against the strongest most experienced field in history, containing more world champions than ever before! More parity rules than ever before, and greater levels of engineering skills and resources across the grid than ever before!

Yup Seb is just an ordinary plodder who got lucky.

You missed my point by ten miles.

The question is whether Vettel is a Senna level driver in a good car or a Piquet level driver in a great car. I have no doubts that Vettel is a very very good driver, but I question him transcending the entire field. The problem is that he has only had one teammate (since Vettel has come into his own) at RB, who himself is a bit of a question mark (pun intended). Webber was doing near miracles in the Jag, edged Heidfeld on pace and then pounded a rookie Rosberg and an aging Coulthard before Vettel. Other than Quick Nick (who never got his chance either), he never had a benchmark teammate so I never got a good reading on how good he really was. Was prime Webber as good as Raikkonen or not? Who knows. Another concern is that Webber was very close to matching Vettel in 2009 and 2010, so the question is how much of Vettel separating himself from Mark is down to Vettel maturing and how much is down to Webber declining?

It's perfectly valid to question just how good Vettel actually is, but he's clearly not an "ordinary plodder", that's absurd.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Vettel is going to have to display his talents in something other than a Neweymobile if people are going to have confidence in him as a great like Senna.

Or against a team-mate like Alonso.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by wnut

3 back to back WDCs against the strongest most experienced field in history, containing more world champions than ever before! More parity rules than ever before, and greater levels of engineering skills and resources across the grid than ever before!

Yup Seb is just an ordinary plodder who got lucky.

Boom! Sebastien Vettel would destroy Senna in the same car.


there's more competition now than when Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell were racing. what's that 5 World Champions on the grid now? F1 of yesteryear can only dream of that, Put those drivers in the F1 cars now, and they'd pass out on the first corner.

[Armco Bender]

what's that 5 World Champions on the grid now? F1 of yesteryear can only dream of that

1967 British GP,5 World Champions racing Clark,Brabham,Surtees,Hill and Stewart,plus the champion elect for that year Hulme.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

1967 British GP,5 World Champions racing Clark,Brabham,Surtees,Hill and Stewart,plus the champion elect for that year Hulme.

... don't forget Jochen Rindt! And Dan Gurney, Jo Siffert, Jacky Ickx, Ludovico Scarfiotti, Pedro RodrÃ*guez could all pedal a bit too... Perhaps the greatest F1 season ever in terms of driving talent?

[chunder]

These arguments always interest me.

I would love to know the ages of those that think Seb would beat a Senna or a Lauda or a Fangio or Clark, maybe they are a bit younger and did not have the chance to watch a race from the 70's or 80's as I fortunately did.

People talk about the modern tyre era hampering cars, I tell you I watched a Jerez GP from 1986 or 87 the other day, the whole thing, and the differences in when people could push were astonishing!

Senna was up front trying to nurse a set of tyres through and using power and boost to hold them all off (a la Villeneuve Jarama 81) and then you would have others making stops and hauling all the time back, and sitting in a queue behind Ayrton. And then in 86 you had that amazing race with Mansell stopping late on and taking seconds a lap back to almost win as he later managed at Silvserstone against Piquet. These race srmeinded of those Webber races early Pirelli when he would leap through the field in the last few laps as tyres cliffed! Was brilliant to watch but bizarrely odd.

Driving on old tyres or stopping early for speed and lap time has been a part of racing for years, and Prost was a master at this, he was rarely a good qualifier, but always abel to pull laptime out in races.

I still find it staggering that he was able to match Senna a lot of the time, as he clearly was rarely as quick, but he just thought more, played the long game.

That approach would not work now, it is all about being able to go when you are told and stop when you are told. Alain did all that by himself as did many in that era.

I have little doubt that your Vettel's and Alonso's would match their older peers, but what you see with Alonso is graft, sheer racecraft, overtakes that would work even before DRS and Kers. He is a master at that for me. and all you see with Seb is domination from the front. Which is a skill yes but not as easy to sell to joe public hence the boing. Even Schuey worked harder for a o lot of his wins than Seb does sadly.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

1967 British GP,5 World Champions racing Clark,Brabham,Surtees,Hill and Stewart,plus the champion elect for that year Hulme.

just one race? last few Seasons there were 6 World Champions competing against each other with 15 World titles between them all. 2010,11, 12 was the most competitive years in F1 History.

[nicanary]

This thread could go on and on and on.......

You can't compare - end of.

(BTW - Senna and Vettel racing for the first corner? Only one would get round, and I know who my money's on. Ain't that right, Aysi?

[Marbot]

To answer the question: Yes, I think they are just as good. If Senna had not died in that tragic accident at Imola, there would have come a time when he knew that someone else had got the better of him. In fact, I think he already knew who that driver was.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

To answer the question: Yes, I think they are just as good. If Senna had not died in that tragic accident at Imola, there would have come a time when he knew that someone else had got the better of him. In fact, I think he already knew who that driver was.

Well he was watching TGF very closely for reasons that we aware off, unfortunately Senna did not live long enough for us to get a true picture of how that battle would have ended..

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by FAS33

just one race? last few Seasons there were 6 World Champions competing against each other with 15 World titles between them all. 2010,11, 12 was the most competitive years in F1 History.

Well if we are having a 'who had the most' conversation, there were actually 7 WDCs running round against each other in 67 for most of the season (including one who was also world champion on bikes and one who won building his own car!). There were also 2 who had won the Indy 500, 4 who had won the Targa Florio and 9 who had won at Le Mans (or were destined to do so).

More than that, there were at least 4 who are in most people's list of 'the greatest ever' (Clark, Stewart, Hill, Rindt).

It was also the era when cars were probably the hardest to drive - the 'return to power' formula was in its second season but there were no wings and everyone was still running round on treaded tyres on circuits upto 14 miles long.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by FAS33

just one race? last few Seasons there were 6 World Champions competing against each other with 15 World titles between them all. 2010,11, 12 was the most competitive years in F1 History.

Am I right in thinking you're of this playstation generation?

Don't confuse close lap-times with competitive (as in drivers being competitive), it is all relative to the cars of a period and the technology.

Send you're fave driver Vettel, up against Loeb at Pikes Peak, you might start to see there's more to a driver's capabilitiy than when driving playstation F1 cars.

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by MarkG

Am I right in thinking you're of this playstation generation?

Don't confuse close lap-times with competitive (as in drivers being competitive), it is all relative to the cars of a period and the technology.

Send you're fave driver Vettel, up against Loeb at Pikes Peak, you might start to see there's more to a driver's capabilitiy than when driving playstation F1 cars.

I also think FAS is a young lad who only see's what he want's to see. Blind to the real truth, look at some you-tube videos of the masters in saloon cars at Spa or Crystal Palace mid to late sixties & tell us when you think SB can equal them, then get him to drive one of those old saloon cars.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

3 back to back WDCs against the strongest most experienced field in history, containing more world champions than ever before! More parity rules than ever before, and greater levels of engineering skills and resources across the grid than ever before!

Yup Seb is just an ordinary plodder who got lucky.

Man, you really are getting even more boring than me!

Anyhow, it's still an inconclusive comparison, whichever way you look at it

Originally Posted by FAS33

Boom! Sebastien Vettel would destroy Senna in the same car.


there's more competition now than when Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell were racing. what's that 5 World Champions on the grid now? F1 of yesteryear can only dream of that, Put those drivers in the F1 cars now, and they'd pass out on the first corner.

Now we really are getting very silly indeed.

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Boom! Sebastien Vettel would destroy Senna in the same car.


there's more competition now than when Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Mansell were racing. what's that 5 World Champions on the grid now? F1 of yesteryear can only dream of that, Put those drivers in the F1 cars now, and they'd pass out on the first corner.

Put these modern F1 drivers in a real old car with lots of HP , no aero, no grip, let hit the first corner fast -



Hopefully they spin so far that they will p**s off & disappear up their own a*** !

[Aysedasi]

All I can say is that this thread is truly fully deserving of it's 'star status'!

[Paradise City]

I'm of the Playstation generation but around the time I got that PS, my folks also thrust that Ivan Randell book highlighting the sports history into my hands. Anyone get it? I didn't read it, I looked at the pictures and let me tell you whilst today's sport is far from easy and beyond the capabilities of most of us here, the sport back then was a far more challenging proposition. I think Senna talking about Clark in 1993 and even Schumacher, when he tested that Alboreto turbo Ferrari, frankly admitted the same. The crew today wouldn't be capable of the same feat, it's a whole different mentality, a whole different standard of risk. Compared to today, back then was a form of insanity, a complete folly.

I suppose you are talking about a freaky era where mass-industrialised warfare was common and life was cheap and the spin off to that was a sport that was insane in how dangerous it was. Life is regarded as a bit more precious now and that's a good thing. I don't think today's guys would've been able to hack those earlier eras and let there be no shame on them for that.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm of the Playstation generation but around the time I got that PS, my folks also thrust that Ivan Randell book highlighting the sports history into my hands. Anyone get it? I didn't read it, I looked at the pictures and let me tell you whilst today's sport is far from easy and beyond the capabilities of most of us here, the sport back then was a far more challenging proposition. I think Senna talking about Clark in 1993 and even Schumacher, when he tested that Alboreto turbo Ferrari, frankly admitted the same. The crew today wouldn't be capable of the same feat, it's a whole different mentality, a whole different standard of risk. Compared to today, back then was a form of insanity, a complete folly.

I suppose you are talking about a freaky era where mass-industrialised warfare was common and life was cheap and the spin off to that was a sport that was insane in how dangerous it was. Life is regarded as a bit more precious now and that's a good thing. I don't think today's guys would've been able to hack those earlier eras and let there be no shame on them for that.

The motor cycle guys still operate under these dangerous conditions!

[chunder]

Its not as dangerous as it once was on bikes

Take note of Pedrosa the other day, he was totally unaware of his bike beig clipped and a small wire being broken, hence when he applied throttle in a place he would have with all the aids on the bike highsided straightaway.

In the past he would ahve had to ride within these parameteres all the time and learned to ride that way.

These awful robot bikes are taking away a lot of the skills a talented bike racer had in the past. Yes they are providing new skills and new abilities and the bikes are very trick, but in reality most of the current crop of riders would be crashing all the itme if they suddenly turned off the electronics!

Its a shame, and at least in F1 there have been efforts to bring back some driver talent and feel, but that has been replaced by ever more efficient aero and things like blown exhaust tech, which again take some teim to learn to use but in effect are driver aids!

I cant see much of a comparison between qualifying a Red Bull to qualifying a Lotus Renault with a totally different type of engine to the race version!. Full boost, massive lag, no power steering, naffer brakes and tyres, manual shift.

Sorry but there is simply no comparison, those guys were Gods to me.

[Aysedasi]

Well do we agree then, comparison of apples with pears isn't going to bear much fruit......?

Whilst I dislike the term 'fanboy', the all-consuming belief in a favourite driver seeps into pretty much everything and frankly ruins most discussions......

[50-SIX]

I don't think you can say point blank all drivers on the current F1 grid couldn't hack it back in the day. Just because they don't have to doesnt mean they couldn't. It also works the other way round.

It's clear that all great champions have one thing in common and that's a sheer determination to win. Put (dare I say) Hamilton into a 60's F1 car and sure, he would have the fright of his life. But I'm sure he would become familiar the car and would end up very quick.

On the flip side, put Clark into a modern F1 car and he wouldn't last 3 laps initially. But I'm sure he would adopt the rigorous and specific training regime needed to drive these cars quickly, and again would be up to speed in no time.

You can't argue either side conclusively. The game has changed. The skill set required to suceed has changed and drivers who are winning today may not have been able to win 30 years ago, and vice versa.

The only type of comparison I can think of is TT (or any road racing) vs moto GP. Now, I view the technically must gifted riders to be the moto gp front runners. But put one of those riders in a TT race and they wouldn't feature initially, due to the different skill set required I.e. ultimate bravery and pushing the boundaries of grip vs the desire to keep living. But take away all other moder forms of racing bikes, then some of these moto GP riders would race the TT, and after a few years, would get up to speed and become front runners.

As for the 'playstation' f1 cars of today,
I would like to see anyone of you dismissing them as this taking Eau Rouge or becketts at racing speed in one. I doubt it's any where near as easy as it looks. And Kubica's crash at Montreal, or Kimi's off at Monza, or the first corner incident at Spa last year look like no PS3 game I would like to be playing. These guys are still taking very big risks.

[50-SIX]

A few spelling mistakes corrected


I don't think you can say point blank all drivers on the current F1 grid couldn't hack it back in the day. Just because they don't have to doesnt mean they couldn't. It also works the other way round.

It's clear that all great champions have one thing in common and that's a sheer determination to win. Put (dare I say) Hamilton into a 60's F1 car and sure, he would have the fright of his life. But I'm sure he would become familiar with the car and would end up very quick.

On the flip side, put Clark into a modern F1 car and he wouldn't last 3 laps initially. But I'm sure he would adopt the rigorous and specific training regime needed to drive these cars quickly, and again would be up to speed in no time.

You can't argue either side conclusively. The game has changed. The skill set required to suceed has changed and drivers who are winning today may not have been able to win 30 years ago, and vice versa.

The only type of comparison I can think of is TT (or any road racing) vs moto GP. Now, I view the technically most gifted riders to be the moto gp front runners. But put one of those riders in a TT race and they wouldn't feature initially, due to the different skill set required I.e. ultimate bravery and pushing the boundaries of grip vs the desire to keep living. But take away all other modern forms of racing bikes, then some of these moto GP riders would race the TT, and after a few years, would get up to speed and become front runners.

As for the 'playstation' f1 cars of today, I would like to see anyone of you dismissing them as such taking Eau Rouge or Becketts/Maggots at racing speed in one. I doubt it's any where near as easy as it looks. And Kubica's crash at Montreal, or Kimi's off at Monza, or the first corner incident at Spa last year look like no PS3 game I would like to be playing. These guys are still taking very big risks.

[davyboy]

It's impossible to answer the question that this thread poses so all we can do is debate our opinions on the subject ad nausea until we eventually fall out with one another and the thread's closed.

What we can say is that the greats of the past were masters of the trade that was required of their time and the same holds true today.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 50-SIX

I don't think you can say point blank all drivers on the current F1 grid couldn't hack it back in the day. Just because they don't have to doesn't mean they couldn't. It also works the other way round.

Exactly so.

Originally Posted by davyboy

What we can say is that the greats of the past were masters of the trade that was required of their time and the same holds true today.

It really is that simple, isn't it?