IMSA Race 2017 Sahlen's 6 Hours of the Glen(IMSA @ Watkins Glen)June 29-July 2

[Akrapovic]

Derani on pole, followed by Pla and then the nearest Caddy.

Mazda absolutely no where. It's depressing being a Mazda fan.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Derani on pole, followed by Pla and then the nearest Caddy.

Mazda absolutely no where. It's depressing being a Mazda fan.

Even slower than the non-Mazda Riley. They're trialing a new cooling package on at least one of the cars so they may be running conservatively but I don't have much hope for them this race.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Derani on pole, followed by Pla and then the nearest Caddy.

Mazda absolutely no where. It's depressing being a Mazda fan.

I thought I was the only one! The only thing that makes the qualifying ok is I listened to it in my Mazda!

And I think this Derani kid knows what to do behind the wheel!

[RWill2073]

I have been a Mazda fan, and want so bad to pull for them, but at this point, I'm checked out on them. Can't stand Doonan and his spin every race, the constant amateur hour pitstops, and just complete ineptitude. I love the looks of the car, and wish I could be a fan, but I can't pull for incompetence.

Reading this, I feel like that makes me a fair weather Mazda fan, and I guess I sort of am, since I don't have any real allegiance to the brand, but I could forgive them no being quite at the top level. I can't support complete failure.

Oh, and these races tend to be more fun when Derani is involved!

How much sand was Cadillac carrying in that session?

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And for those of you who think that Watkins Glen is dangerous, the FIA have the track rated at a Grade 1T, the only thing keeping it from being a full Grade 1 is lack of F1/LM style pit garages.

Tracks no more dangerous than some of the tracks that the FIA pass for Grade 1, such as Monaco and Baku.

I don't think Monaco and Baku have an established history of track blocking pileups in blind approach 6th gear corners. One thing to test there and a very different one to race.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And for those of you who think that Watkins Glen is dangerous, the FIA have the track rated at a Grade 1T, the only thing keeping it from being a full Grade 1 is lack of F1/LM style pit garages.

Tracks no more dangerous than some of the tracks that the FIA pass for Grade 1, such as Monaco and Baku.

Grade 1T -> 1 also involves kerbs, run offs, medical facilities, etc.

[chernaudi]

Imola was rated Grade 1T after the 2008 updates, then in 2011 got bumped up to full Grade 1, and I don't remember any changes made to the track after 2008.

It was also full Grade 1 prior to 2006 when there was no major updates for years to the track.

And it has to be remembered that at Baku the area that passes by the castle is ridiculously narrow, and there's no way that Monaco can be a Grade 1 track without the FIA passing it a waiver since it's F1's most important race (most areas of Monaco have almost no runoff room).

I don't see where WG's medical facilities are any worse than a F1 track's, or the curbs or anything else other than a lot of the infrastructure that would have to be redone at Road America to get it up to Grade 1 from Grade 2. Basically stuff that VIPs and other people want.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by joeb

I thought I was the only one! The only thing that makes the qualifying ok is I listened to it in my Mazda!

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Mazda absolutely no where. It's depressing being a Mazda fan.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Imola was rated Grade 1T after the 2008 updates, then in 2011 got bumped up to full Grade 1, and I don't remember any changes made to the track after 2008.

It was also full Grade 1 prior to 2006 when there was no major updates for years to the track.

And it has to be remembered that at Baku the area that passes by the castle is ridiculously narrow, and there's no way that Monaco can be a Grade 1 track without the FIA passing it a waiver since it's F1's most important race (most areas of Monaco have almost no runoff room).

I don't see where WG's medical facilities are any worse than a F1 track's, or the curbs or anything else other than a lot of the infrastructure that would have to be redone at Road America to get it up to Grade 1 from Grade 2. Basically stuff that VIPs and other people want.

There's also a fee involved in moving from 1T to 1, as it requires more detailed FIA inspections. That's why Imola was downgraded to a 1T after updates, and then upgraded again - they chose to go for that accreditation, and got the FIA back for more inspections.

I didn't say WG medical facilities weren't up to date, I said that's a factor in moving from 1T to 1. WG kerbs don't meet FIA specs, so if that was to reapply for moving to Grade 1, there's no way the T1 and Inner Loop kerbs would make the current cut. Baku might have a narrow section, but it also has significant run off in fast corners, something that Watkins Glen doesn't have.

Monaco doesn't factor into this as it's been grand fathered in. Same reason the Dunlop bridge is still at Le Mans but was removed from Donington, and now won't return.

[chernaudi]

Well if you can't go for full Grade 1, why not go Grade 2? LMP1s can race on Grade 2 tracks, and LM is Grade 2. If all Imola had to do was pay the FIA a fee for the upgrade, why didn't they do it in 2008 if they technically met Grade 1 specs in the first place?

Some of this track grading stuff is IMO arbitrary and ridiculous. If you can't or don't want F1 to race at your facility, why upgrade it? Mind you, I do admit from watching NASCAR races that paving over the T1 and inner loop gravel pits was a good move. 99% of the time someone went off there, it was an automatic FCY.

I'm not against upgrades if they're made in the interest of safety or enhancing fan or competitor's experience, but I don't see why the Esses at Watkins Glen is a big deal aside from the point that if there's a wreck, it becomes a big choke point. There does seem to be questions over why there's not a marshal's post/flag station prior to the Esses, which IMO is a bit of an oversight by ISC.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well if you can't go for full Grade 1, why not go Grade 2? LMP1s can race on Grade 2 tracks, and LM is Grade 2. If all Imola had to do was pay the FIA a fee for the upgrade, why didn't they do it in 2008 if they technically met Grade 1 specs in the first place?

Because they weren't planning on hosting an F1 race, but were available for test days. The possibility of having a team rent your circuit for a few days could easily pay for the 1T fee. Now they are being vocal about the possibility of F1 returning to Imola, so they looked to move to a full Grade 1.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Some of this track grading stuff is IMO arbitrary and ridiculous. If you can't or don't want F1 to race at your facility, why upgrade it? Mind you, I do admit from watching NASCAR races that paving over the T1 and inner loop gravel pits was a good move. 99% of the time someone went off there, it was an automatic FCY.

This view makes the assumption that builds built int he 1970s are not only in great condition, but are still relevant to modern race cars. Why upgrade your circuit? For the same reason we upgrade everything else. Because old things aren't as nice, may not provide all the facilities required for a modern racing event, and may not be in a state that can be maintained. Some older buildings are cheaper and more economical to tear down and build new ones. And then you get into potentially improved spectator areas on those buildings, better press rooms, and more economical buildings - easier to maintain, or better energy usage, meaning lower maintenance and utility bills over the next few decades. And if you're doing all these upgrades to bring your facility to the modern world, you might find that going up a circuit grading might be easier than you think.

Basically, there's good reasons for the circuit grades. WG is 1T, but actually fairly far away from a Grade 1. And upgrading circuits can be done a lot of business reasons, beyond what events you plan on holding. Facility maintenance is important and expensive, in any industry.

[Akrapovic]

Heavens just opened 30 minutes into the Continental Tyre race. Looks like it's going to properly rain. Rumbles of thunder too.

Drivers all doing a great job on slicks right now.

[Akrapovic]

And now the rains too much. Couple of cars in the wall, FCY.

Edit: Red flag. Probably for lightning.

[chernaudi]

My biggest issue with a lot of the upgrades are the unintended consequences of such upgrades, like how many F1 or WEC races have we heard people, be it officials or teams or drivers or fans, complain about track limits or that asphalt run offs make the tracks look like parking lots?

Don't want people abusing track limits, then make it so that no advantage is gained, such as curbs that can upset or slow down cars when hit, or place a low grip or abrasive material that drivers will want to avoid. Even at some F1 tracks, I'd have to say that some of the sausage curbs shouldn't pass FIA inspection, though the FIA ironically place them there to avoid track limits abuse or make the penalty self policing.

But then again, as posed on another thread, do we modify circuits, or artificially slow down the cars so they can keep racing on an unmodified track?

Then also then again, why do a lot of teams and drivers back in the ALMS days enjoy racing on North American circuits (most of which are Grade 2)? Because they're not as sterile or sanitized as most F1 Grade 1 spec tracks are. If Suzuka is a Grade 1 track, that's the model IMO that should be followed.

[chernaudi]

Am I right to say that in both WSCS and Continental Challenge there's only slicks and full wet tires?

[Maelochs]

Why all this talk of track upgrade if the only real "upgrade" needed is one more marshal's station and a few more flags and radios (and marshals bring their own anyway.)

The full "F1" upgrade generally includes a lot of money for things unrelated to racing,. like suites for the billionaires ...and it the billionaires aren't coming , why bother?

Watkins Glen doesn't have a history of severe injuries and deaths ... which is what is meant by the term "unsafe." People are getting hysterical about a single incident.

Find what caused and contributed to the incident (maybe rain (Ban Rain!!!! Kill Mother Nature!!!)) and the lack of a flag station.

Maybe the appropriate response isn't a multi-million dollar investment in facilities that don't need it or wouldn't get used if built. Maybe the answer is a truckload of lumber and a few bags of concrete to build another flag station.

I have to laugh at that T-shirt, .... "Stay calm and carry on."

Because the people who need to read it are too busy freaking out.

[Akrapovic]

Nobody is getting hysterical about anything. It was barely even mentioned here, before someone said "and before someone calls Watkins Glen dangerous", which was never going to happen anyway. The track upgrade discussion was just bottoming out what the differences between 1 and 1T are, because it isn't as simple as some make out.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I thought you'd like that.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Am I right to say that in both WSCS and Continental Challenge there's only slicks and full wet tires?

Yep, but idk if/whether Michelin can/has brought inters for GTLM.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Watkins Glen doesn't have a history of severe injuries and deaths ... which is what is meant by the term "unsafe." People are getting hysterical about a single incident.

Well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nal_fatalities

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Watkins Glen doesn't have a history of severe injuries and deaths

Yes it does. Casualty rate aside it's unquestionably extremely above average for crash damage expenses.

[chernaudi]

And Le Mans doesn't? I don't hear anyone complaining about Le Mans aside from barrier repairs taking away practice and qualifying time during race week and yellow flags for barrier damage along the Mulsanne Straight (aside from in general comments about pro-am driving standards that pop up everywhere the WEC or IMSA races nowadays). Not to mention that LM had a racing related fatality as recently as 2013, in part because of how the barriers are installed.

To be fair, the LM barriers are temporary and are usually taken down between sessions. At least Watkins Glen's armco is permanent, as it's a permanent track. And granted, Watkins Glen doesn't have a recent history of fatal accidents or serious injuries, but it has a history of at least once a year a race getting red flagged or having a lengthy caution period because of an accident in the Esses blocking the track--usually at least once during the NASCAR weekend especially.

However, it seems that a lot of the accidents in the past, even this weekend, could've been prevented or at least reduced in severity if there was a flag post before the Esses. But you'll have to take that up with ISC, or their NASCAR parent. After all, NASCAR and ISC have always been at the forefront of safety and technology (sarcasm).

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And Le Mans doesn't? I don't hear anyone complaining about Le Mans

I don't hear anyone complaining about Watkins Glen, other than the not unreasonable suggestion of adding an extra flag stand to the esses. The biggest complaining has been people complaining about the (non-existent) complaints and defending Watkins Glen against attacks that aren't happening.

A bad accident happened. It would've been less likely with an additional flag stand. Nobody has said Watkins is a death trap. Chill out.

[chernaudi]

I also don't think that there's a ton of room at Watkins Glen to move back barriers in the Esses because of a tunnel that goes under part of them. Le Mans has/had a similar problem with the Porsche Curves. At LM, they're extending the tunnel to create land fill on top of it for more run off room, but I don't think that's viable for WG.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't hear anyone complaining about Watkins Glen, other than the not unreasonable suggestion of adding an extra flag stand to the esses. The biggest complaining has been people complaining about the (non-existent) complaints and defending Watkins Glen against attacks that aren't happening.

A bad accident happened. It would've been less likely with an additional flag stand. Nobody has said Watkins is a death trap. Chill out.

Last fatal accident at LM on the Sarthe Circuit was 2013, mostly because of something the ACO though was unlikely to happen. Watkins Glen hasn't had a fatal accident in years and no one's been seriously injured there in years in a professional sanctioned event. But just because someone hasn't died or been seriously injured in years doesn't mean that a minor improvement shouldn't be made to improve competitor safety and experience. "Only thing" that's happened is that a lot of people have gotten huge repair bills or even wrote off cars in accidents, often in the Esses because one or two people get it wrong and it creates a massive choke point.

What anywhere else on the track would be a 1-2 car accident can involve half the field and create an impassible log jam that usually results in a red flag to clean up the mess. And as mentioned above, I don't think that there's much that can be done to make a useful increase in run off room.

Of course, knowing this pattern, one has to question why ISC has never placed a flag station between turn 1 and the Esses? It's a common problem, but they as track owner have never done anything about it.

Of course, that's also where my sarcastic comment about ISC and NASCAR being at the forefront of safety and technology comes from.

Track might not be a death trap for drivers, but it's eaten more than its fair share of cars, doesn't suffer fools kindly, and especially the Esses and back straight, will punish any errors or mistakes, usually harshly.

With that last sentence being said, if a simple flag station between T1 and the Esses can fix or at least remedy/help the problem, why hasn't ISC committed to such a change. Even if people don't get badly hurt, team owners aren't going to be happy having to write checks to cover repair bills or written off cars when the severity of an incident can be reduced by an extra flag post.

But the entire racing community a lot of times is more reactionary than proactionary.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Last fatal accident at LM on the Sarthe Circuit was 2013, mostly because of something the ACO though was unlikely to happen. Watkins Glen hasn't had a fatal accident in years and no one's been seriously injured there in years in a professional sanctioned event. Only thing that's happened is that a lot of people have gotten huge repair bills or even wrote off cars in accidents, often in the Esses because one or two people get it wrong and it creates a massive choke point.

What anywhere else on the track would be a 1-2 car accident can involve half the field and create an impassible log jam that usually results in a red flag to clean up the mess. And as mentioned above, I don't think that there's much that can be done to make a useful increase in run off room.

Of course, knowing this pattern, one has to question why ISC has never placed a flag station between turn 1 and the Esses? It's a common problem, but they as track owner have never done anything about it.

Of course, that's also where my sarcastic comment about ISC and NASCAR being at the forefront of safety and technology comes from.

Very good. No offence, but you're preaching against nobody mate. Nobody has sat and said Watkins Glen is a death trap and needs changed. A handful of people are filling the thread with a hardcore defence of Watkins, against a non-existent attack. I don't get what Le Mans or any other track has got to do with this.

All that's being suggested is a flag stand midway up the esses. There isn't a lot of room there, no, but there's nothing at all to stop a scaffolding stand being put up for marshals. Nobody is saying everyone who races at Watkins is going to die, or that it needs an upgrade or whatever. Just a single suggestion that would've decreased the chances of quite a bad accident happening.