World Series by Renault driver banned from Monaco for life

[flying muppet]

Anyone else see this story yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/4578667.stm

[Stone-kicker]

It was on Ceefax too.

[rumblefish]

Yes, I saw this. Anyone know anything further of the marshal's condition?

[Kicking-back]

I think they've got it wrong - the story came out at the weekend - but was later denied by Monaco officials.

[Grandslammer]

There's also a thread running in 'International&National single seaters' with further info.

[Sheila M]

As I understand it the driver has only been banned from 9 races.

The World Series by Renault officials are really tough on yellow flag infringements, which can only be a good thing.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

..The World Series by Renault officials are really tough on yellow flag infringements, which can only be a good thing.

Our own Eddy V had something to say about WS by Renault race control in this thread about the Zolder round where he was observing. I think it's more a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Renault's own home page only lists suspensions from the series nothing about a lifetime ban at Monaco.

Autosport Atlas had a couple of articles (from the Renault Press office about Maldonado going to the hospital to see the marshal (whose name is only given as Gilles). It seems that marshal has had his back broken in two places, and, although expected to recover, may well need a year of therapy.

Personally I think a lifetime ban from Monaco is too severe. If however, Maldonado had caused a fatality...

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

...It seems that marshal has had his back broken in two places, and, although expected to recover, may well need a year of therapy. Personally I think a lifetime ban from Monaco is too severe. If however, Maldonado had caused a fatality...

Err, so breaking a Marshal's back is OK and just deserves a severe telling off. He'd have to kill one of us before he was banned...!?

Somehow I don't think you really meant that.

[Raglanparade]

At which corner did the incident occur ? and what was the position of the flag marshalls ?

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Err, so breaking a Marshal's back is OK and just deserves a severe telling off. He'd have to kill one of us before he was banned...!?

Somehow I don't think you really meant that.

You're absolutely right, you have misinterpreted me.

1 - nowhere did I say breaking a marshal's back was OK
2 - nowhere did I suggest that a severe telling off was an appropriate punishment
3 - motorsport is dangerous
4 - punishment should be proportional to crime (IMHO)
5 - Maldonado's punishment was for dangerous driving after failing to obey yellow flags and the subsequent consequence.

Finishing his career for this year seems to me a fair punishment. If the consequences were more serious then the punishment should be more severe.


The accident happened at the top of the rise to Casino Square, with the initial car that was (?partially) blocking the track slightly out of sight due to the track layout (exactly like Eddie V's case 2 weeks earlier) . Some drivers involved apparently initially said that yellow flags were not out (where have we heard that before?). It seems that there is evidence to show there were double waved yellows.

I also feel, as Eddie said in the other thread, that the FIA ruling, no stationary yellow before waved contributed to this

[Raglanparade]

When your approached the top of the Hill or Around Casino Square....... Your going very fast, and often are fully concentrating on the track..

I think maybe the driver isnt as much at fault as what we may be told to think..........

[Kicking-back]

Surely a punishment should be for the offence - ie ignoring yellow flags.

Hitting the marshal, while tragic, should not increase the punishment.

We need tougher penalties for ignoring yellow flags in the first place - it shouldn't take hitting marshals for action!

[Bodysnatcher]

KB, no hitting the marshal is'nt the main offence, but it's a direct consequence of his inaction/inability.
In my book it should increase the punishment, if only as a reminder to all others that a double waved yellow is bloody serious and we expect drivers to pay attention to it.

In a perfect world drivers would all see yellow flags, their fellow competitors would not try and take advantage of them, yellow flag infrigements would always be seen by us, race control would always take action, the drivers would always admit to them and the punishments would be fair and the drivers would never ever think of doing something like that again...but it ain't a perfect world.
pheww what a sentence

However, I also think that after the fallout from Zolder, the Stewards probably decided to throw the book at the WS by Renault drivers involved at Monaco.

[numbersix]

Bodysnatcher - I take your point, but not all. Same with Kinking-back.

The driver had NO excuse for not seeing/reacting to, a yellow flag. I know he was busy concentrating on the race but the flags are a crucial part of the race, not something you think about when you feel like it. It's a question of lifting the importance of a yellow flag in the driver's mind by the time-honoured system of making making his life hell if he doesn't.

The marshal will spend the rest of his life in various levels of pain, and disability ranging from a wheelchair to merely needing to sit more often. If this was caused by a driver "not seeing" or not reacting to a yellow flag then I see no reason whatsoever why said driver shouldn't regret it for his life too.

From what I've seen in other motorsport forums, drivers also take a very dim view of this and continously applaud marshals for their work.

If the details are true, the officials at Monaco were 100% correct in removing dangerous drivers from their circuit - for life, and in so doing give a very big message to the few other drivers who need it.

[Paul Newns]

I applaud the officials for imposing the ban. Too many drivers fail to obey flag signals. It may not be much but a yellow is the only protection the guys on the ground have and they deserve the drivers' respect in obeying flags, even if their best lap is lost or a lead reduced.

If there were double waved yellows they were presumably backed up by a single waved yellow at the previous post. Even without this a double waved yellow should be easily seen and means slow down and be prepared to stop. Obviously in this case the driver failed to slow sufficiently to allow him to stop.

If they can stop drivers near the top of the ladder ignoring flags then maybe those lower down will get the message, too. I have to say that club drivers are probably the best at obeying flags whilst "professional" drivers think its OK to do whatever they like.

[Mark Mitchell]

Senior officials need to take a firmer stance on flag infringements.
I can't remember the last time a driver was penalised follwing a report from me that a yellow flag infringement had ocurred.
The usual comment from the Clerks is that "He's (The Driver) been spoken to and warned that we are watching him.......if he does it again, he's out!"

It does make the reporting of the infringement seem sometimes pointless!

[Hepatic]

Taken from autosport this week (apologies for the way it's copied, the OCR program isn't perfect...!):

RENAULTWORLD Series team bosses have called for consistency over race bans in the wake of sanctions aftera multi-car crash in practice at Monaco last Thursday left a marshal facing six weeks in hospital with multiple fractures to his spine.
In total, fourdrivers were excluded from I he Monaco meeting fortheir part in the ii icident. The biggest ban was for DAMS driver Pastor Maldonado, who was suspended from the series for a further 4 rounds.and Eurointernational's M.itteo Meneghello, who was also banned for four events, but with two ol Ihese suspended.
The crash occurred in Thursday's free
practice session, and was triggered when Pilete spun backwards into the barrier at Massenet. As Pilete's car was recovered by
marshals under yellow flags. Maldonado arrived and also went off, striking a marshal, aswell as Pilele's

Maldonado
machine. Adoctorwas subsequently attending to the injured marshal when, despite red-flag conditions, Meneghello came on the scene and narrowly avoided hitting them, too.
The Automobile Clubof Monaco-appointed race stewards handed down the bans, which followed majorincidents at the Zolder season-opener during which Stefano Proetto was banned and anotherdriversuffered a broken ankle.
Maldonado'steam boss,Jean-Paul Driot, said: "I told Pastorwhat he did was totally unacceptable and that he deserved sanction. I am totally okay with the sanction given. It was needed after what had happened atZolderand here. "Butthe penalties need to befairand consistent. Pastor crashed underyellowsand got afour-race ban. while Meneghello crashed under red and not two, with two more suspended."
I inoililcnl.ilion.ilf hiel Anlnniol eii.iiih,i\
appealed to overturn Meneghello's ban, and claimed there were extenuatingcircumstances in his driver's involvement
"He was allowed to leave the pits under red flags on newtyres and cold brakes," said Ferrari. "Hetried everythingto slow down. He barely touched the other carand did not hitany people before stopping, but the stewards never looked at the data orthe timings. I advocate safety in motorsport. I would neverappeal againsta situation that compromised safety, but we have appealed to the ACM because they applied the wrong rulesin this situation."

[Woolley]

I find that last bit astounding. "He was allowed to leave the pits under red flags".

Surely the red flags mean that whatever pit signals may have been showing, the circuit was closed when he tried to join it. Reds mean stop racing, return to the pits unless otherwise directed. If he's already in the pits there's no reason to leave them. What are the marshals supposed to do? Jump in front of him? Even so, to have been doing anything more than pootling along is just plain dumb, never mind dangerous. Sorry, but kick him out too.

It's very encouraging to see a firm line being taken on yellows at last, but my thoughts are with the marshal. We all wish him a full and speedy recovery.

[Clive]

Having been nearly mown down under a red flag situation, albeit whilst karting, the CoC merely said I shouldn't have been on the circuit, even though I was attending the incident where the young driver was injured. The two drivers who had been racing for a full lap under waved reds were allowed to get away with it with no punishment at all. I haven't marshalled since when that CoC has been in attendance! They should have been sent home immediately with a sever punishment, and I think in this instance at Monaco the drivers were dealt wiht extremely leniently. My thoughts too go with the injured marshal.

[Al Weyman]

Well for someone who failed for about 3 laps to see a black flag pointed at me and receiving a hundred pound fine I can have some sympathy with the guy, I swear to this day I never see the thing waved at the chichane corner at Donnington and me driving a left hand drive low visability yank and only stopped because the clutch blew out. If I had of seen it I would have pulled up straight away for sure as that is not my style.

[chezza]

I think that he was delt with correctly. Under no circumstances should that driver have been in the situtaion to have hit the marshal.

A waved yellow (taken from the blue book) Great Danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary. No overtaking.

Maldonado clearly hadn't slowed enough to be in control of the car to either steer to miss the marshal or to stop. As for the guy nearly hitting the marshal and doctor under reds...he should also have had the book thrown at him.

I hope this is a signal to all drivers, you cannot get away with these things.

[HiRich]

Coming late to this, I've got a certain feeling of unease. Clearly, ultimate responsibility rests with the drivers, and correctly they have been punished (whether or not you agree with the scale of punishment). This sends a message to the drivers, and hopefully a similar standard will be applied to future incidents in this series.

However. There are still questions unanswered. I suspect there are many more lessons to be learned, and learned now rather than when a fatal accident happens. We have learnt that drivers can be stupid, but what else?
- Did the marshals put themselves in unnecessary danger? Could they have had some form of portable protection (like how bike marshals throw out hay bales)?
- Were flags shown upstream? If not, why not? Did the upstream flag positions have sight of the incident? Is there a procedure for triggering upstream flags rapidly?
- Were the flags visible? I have some sympathy for Al. I can accept that the run up the hill towards Casino is pretty intense for the driver, what with running in a gully and committing to a blind entry which needs to be taken inch-perfect, at high speed? Can they see the flags clearly? Is there information overload? It is possible that the drivers have maybe a tenth of a second to spot this particular flag - could it be that at that exact moment the waved flag was 'on the turn' and almost invisible?
- Is there a case for moving flag positions? Having separate flag and recovery stations? Light gantries? Lights on the dashboard?
- How on earth was a car able to access a closed track? Is there a case for more human intervention (like a man holding a flag across the lane, which the driver would have to brush through)?

I don't know, and I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just asking the questions, and I'm concerned that no-one else is. We've accepted that the drivers were idiots, sure, but is that really it? What I would like to see is a no-blame incident investigation to consider these issues and suggest procedural improvements. I always think of Ron Dennis' quote that when a problem occurs, it is the procedure at fault, not the people (even if the procedural fault was to put an idiot in charge). This should be happening for every incident, from Monaco Grand Prix to Mallory Clubbie. This would:
- Highlight problems, and raise suggestions from the front line parties (drivers and marshals).
- Indicate trends over time. If several people like Al miss their black flags, perhaps the flag isn't very obvious. Why not move it? Why not specify the position in the briefing and final instructions?

It seems to be human nature to dismiss a minor incident as a freak, or place blame on one person (the stupid driver). When we get a catastrophic version of the same incident, we wring our hands, and we often find that someone had the solution but couldn't find anyone to listen. I appreciate that so many investigations could potentially create masses of (almost worthless) paperwork and time, so the depth of work needs to be commensurate to the incident and carefully managed (it might be an email feedback system for marshals and competitors - if you want to pass on a comment or suggestion, you can). It might already happen in some form, but I'm not sure, and I don't see it. I would like to see an open process for assessing and improving track safety in all forms (layout, facilities & equipment, and procedures), and a best practice forum for sharing learnings between circuits and organisations. Am I missing it?

[McPherson Strut]

I find it hard to justify this whole situation when the other 24 or so drivers who were out there all managed to back off and avoid any involvement in the accident. This will always be the case yet there still appear to be a myriad of excuses from those who were involved. If the other 24 (who lets face it are not all holier than thou !) manage to behave then I say throw the book at those who don't.