Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing > North American Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19 Mar 2017, 07:09 (Ref:3719949)   #1251
Ospi
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 522
Ospi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridOspi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You couldn't reduce the weight of the P3 without considerable redesign and costs so that's not even an option (a JSP3 is 930 out of the box). Power increase is going happen but again it'll further increase costs, so many will be apprehensive giving it the green light, but they need to get them to fill that big void left by the new p2.
Ospi is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 10:03 (Ref:3719970)   #1252
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
The engine is a V8 2.8, less than 3 liters
Still a V8. Two cylinders more than allowed.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:14.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3719971)   #1253
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMedic9019 View Post
Faith? No. Not faith.
Oh, yes. It's faith. P3 is simply not priced to race on the level this series is meant to be at. Unless there's some major changes going forward, this will eventually become a problem. Keep in mind the series wasn't exactly strong(barely managing double-digit car counts) when it was just running the nice and cheap Elans.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:18.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 10:07 (Ref:3719972)   #1254
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ospi View Post
You couldn't reduce the weight of the P3 without considerable redesign and costs so that's not even an option (a JSP3 is 930 out of the box).
That's news to me, and frankly I find that quite concerning - well-designed cars are generally quite a bit underweight and require ballast to achieve the set weight, after all. (there's a reason Ginetta got so much ridicule when it was claimed it came in OVERweight)

Quote:
Power increase is going happen but again it'll further increase costs, so many will be apprehensive giving it the green light, but they need to get them to fill that big void left by the new p2.
From what I've heard the engine aren't being run anywhere close to their capability, so cost increase for a small power upgrade should be minimal.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:15.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 10:18 (Ref:3719973)   #1255
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
That's news to me, and frankly I find that quite concerning.
Why? The cars are designed to a cost-cap and around a spec power-train. 'Adding lightness' costs a bunch of money that you can't recoup under a cost cap, especially when a large chunk of the car's weight (engine, transmission, etc) is out of range for any improvements anyway.


Quote:
From what I've heard the engine aren't being run anywhere close to their capability, so cost increase for a small power upgrade should be minimal.
From dailysportscar:

Quote:
The proposal though was heavily opposed by LMP3 teams in Asia, many of whom are very new to the class and whose current business plans would be affected by the additional expenditure incurred with both uprating their current engines, and the inevitable effects that the move would have on service intervals etc.
Dunno about you, but that doesn't sound completely trivial to me. On the other hand there's this:

Quote:
A senior ACO source confirmed the proposal had been prompted by concerns over the number of contact incidents in the ELMS between LMP3 and GTE cars, and that the introduction of even quicker 2016 spec GTEs would likely increase the risk of further incidents.
So the cost of the engine upgrades might be set off by having less crash damage from altercations with GTs, but that of course isn't really a factor in IMSA competition.
Speed-King is offline  
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam.
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3719979)   #1256
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Why? The cars are designed to a cost-cap and around a spec power-train. 'Adding lightness' costs a bunch of money that you can't recoup under a cost cap, especially when a large chunk of the car's weight (engine, transmission, etc) is out of range for any improvements anyway.
A cost cap does not mean they can't recoup the additional development costs. Unless the cars are actually built at a loss under the cap, a high enough volume of sale will eventually recoup the cost. Especially in a class where the ongoing development costs are likely to be minimal since the design is locked in for five years.

Quote:
Dunno about you, but that doesn't sound completely trivial to me. On the other hand there's this:
I don't have any information on what kind of finances the AsLMS P3 teams are dealing with, but I do know two things:

1) Teams with weak finances won't want ANY changes that could increase their costs even the slightest bit.

2) Even teams with good finances will cry poverty to get their way(seriously, if all the teams that cried poverty over needing to buy new cars in 2017 had actually left, IMSA would have MAYBE four cars in Prototype).

Without knowing how tight a budget things are for those teams, it's tough to use them as a gauge for how significant a change it would be. You'll notice the European teams don't seem bothered(enough to influence decision, anyway), so the issue is clearly something that's a bigger concern for Asian teams than European.

Quote:
So the cost of the engine upgrades might be set off by having less crash damage from altercations with GTs, but that of course isn't really a factor in IMSA competition.
Danger of collisions with Elan DP02s, however, IS a factor.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:43.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3719986)   #1257
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
A cost cap does not mean they can't recoup the additional development costs. Unless the cars are actually built at a loss under the cap, a high enough volume of sale will eventually recoup the cost. Especially in a class where the ongoing development costs are likely to be minimal since the design is locked in for five years.
Taking a 100kg of weight out of the chassis might put them into the zone where they would build cars to a loss. Where do you even want to safe that if you can't touch the power train? I am having a hard time finding numbers for the weight of the powertrain, but 100kg could easily be 15-20% of the weight of the actual chassis!


Quote:
Danger of collisions with Elan DP02s, however, IS a factor.
Less so, since the Elans make their laptimes in the same way the P3s do: Fast in the corners, relatively slow on the straights. Thus, there's less need for the sort of dive-bomb moves often seen in competition against GT-cars that can only be passed in the corners.
Speed-King is offline  
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam.
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 12:14 (Ref:3719992)   #1258
10TENTHS
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 609
10TENTHS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You can't really judge the LMP3 by the speed of the greybeards. Jamin, Gutierrez and Thompson were noticeably faster.

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF (Jamin was almost 3 seconds quicker than Kyle Masson in the leading Elan)

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF
10TENTHS is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3719997)   #1259
Bcarr6
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,996
Bcarr6 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBcarr6 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10TENTHS View Post
You can't really judge the LMP3 by the speed of the greybeards. Jamin, Gutierrez and Thompson were noticeably faster.

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF (Jamin was almost 3 seconds quicker than Kyle Masson in the leading Elan)

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF


Completely true. Watch some of the ELMS races where Alex Brundle was in a United Ligier P3

They can move in the right hands

It's unfair to say they are slow when the categories focus is Am or Pro Am combos
Bcarr6 is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 17:54 (Ref:3720033)   #1260
Rcz
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
United States
Posts: 1,078
Rcz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.

CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda.
From the FIA.
CN cars must have a engine source from a Group N class (aka touring cars) with a maximum of 3L and 6 cylinders. No racing engines allowed.

They is some spec car series like the radical cup that use V8s however.
Rcz is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:11 (Ref:3720038)   #1261
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.

CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda.
From the FIA.
CN cars must have a engine source from a Group N class (aka touring cars) with a maximum of 3L and 6 cylinders. No racing engines allowed.

They is some spec car series like the radical cup that use V8s however.
This was posted on DSC Yesterday:

Quote:
In the first ever VdeV pre-season press conference, series organiser Eric Van der Vyver was keen to show off the new generation of CN engine which is set for use from 2017 onwards.

Produced by RDM, it’s a turbo-charged bespoke engine for use in the VdeV Endurance Proto series, which promises to be a significant upgrade over the older Honda engine which has even used since the early 2000s.

No teams on site here are using the new RDM powerplant, but there’s interest within the paddock from some teams wishing to upgrade going forward.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...%E2%80%A8.html
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 19:09 (Ref:3720041)   #1262
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10TENTHS View Post
You can't really judge the LMP3 by the speed of the greybeards. Jamin, Gutierrez and Thompson were noticeably faster.

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF (Jamin was almost 3 seconds quicker than Kyle Masson in the leading Elan)

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF
There's a reason I'm not going SOLELY by the IMSA results in addressing this matter. I draw the comparison to CN a lot not just because I'm a proponent of CN, but because it's a valid poin to consider. If I've got to decide between two classes of car that can be used in a multitude of international championships, and both run at about the same pace, I'm gonna go with the one that's half the price.

In point of fact, when it comes to where you can race a CN car vs an LMP3, there's actually only two places you can run LMP3 and NOT CN right now; ELMS and IMSA Prototype Challenge. Every other series that runs prototype classes has both.

The problem with those guys up front in IMSA, however, is that those speeds have generally been the exception rather than the rule. Only the absolute slowest P3 drivers should be anywhere near the lap times of the slower class. You can bet good money that if this was happening in the Weathertech series, IMSA would be doing something about it.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 19:16.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 19:11 (Ref:3720042)   #1263
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.
This I know, but even then they're usually a fair bit underweight.

Quote:
CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda.
This is exactly what I've proposed for P Lites/Challenge in the past.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 19:19.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 19:24 (Ref:3720044)   #1264
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Taking a 100kg of weight out of the chassis might put them into the zone where they would build cars to a loss. Where do you even want to safe that if you can't touch the power train? I am having a hard time finding numbers for the weight of the powertrain, but 100kg could easily be 15-20% of the weight of the actual chassis!
I do not know where to go in light of the revelation that the car has barely made minimum weight. All of my statements were based on the understanding that the car was still built underweight.

Quote:
Less so, since the Elans make their laptimes in the same way the P3s do: Fast in the corners, relatively slow on the straights. Thus, there's less need for the sort of dive-bomb moves often seen in competition against GT-cars that can only be passed in the corners.
If the cars are mixing it up regularly and don't have an easy time breaking away from each other, collisions are just as valid a concern.

They also DON'T get their laptimes completely the same way. Only in the most generalized sense are they the same. Maintaining momentum is far more important in the DP02s than in the LMP3s due to how much less torque the Mazda engines in the Elan have.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 19:33 (Ref:3720045)   #1265
Rcz
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
United States
Posts: 1,078
Rcz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Yes but dont vdv follow its own rules differently from the FIA?
Rcz is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Mar 2017, 19:48 (Ref:3720052)   #1266
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Yes but dont vdv follow its own rules differently from the FIA?
Up until this, they followed the FIA rules rather closely. All of the cars in Proto Endurance were 100% in line with the FIA CN regs.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Mar 2017, 20:01 (Ref:3720277)   #1267
MoMedic9019
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2013
United States
Wauwatosa, WI
Posts: 2,470
MoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
Oh, yes. It's faith. P3 is simply not priced to race on the level this series is meant to be at. Unless there's some major changes going forward, this will eventually become a problem. Keep in mind the series wasn't exactly strong(barely managing double-digit car counts) when it was just running the nice and cheap Elans.
So an improved coverage plan to include both sound and vision, new cars that can be paid for, run long distances, and make a great stepping stone to bigger/faster photos, and the efforts of both IMSA and Mazda to push it forward into a true development ground won't have any effect? Right.

Based on the conversation I had over the weekend with both teams, and manufacturers... you've got no clue.

IMSA has chosen P3, they are working hard to make it a success, and it will be..
MoMedic9019 is offline  
__________________
“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.”
Quote
Old 20 Mar 2017, 22:48 (Ref:3720300)   #1268
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMedic9019 View Post
So an improved coverage plan to include both sound and vision, new cars that can be paid for, run long distances, and make a great stepping stone to bigger/faster photos, and the efforts of both IMSA and Mazda to push it forward into a true development ground won't have any effect? Right.
You say that as if LMP3 was the only means with which to gain any of that. Do I need to retread the realities of that other class I'm pushing yet again? I certainly hope not because even I'm getting sick of harping on that.

Quote:
IMSA has chosen P3, they are working hard to make it a success, and it will be..
Not if people involved start questioning the point of paying double the price for cars that are barely any faster.

IMSA can push it all they want, but if they can't justify the increased expense it can easily come to nothing.

So yes, it IS faith. You have no way of knowing how it's going to turn out. (nor do I, but that's why I characterize my points as CONCERNS, not a definite future)
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Mar 2017, 01:34 (Ref:3720328)   #1269
MoMedic9019
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2013
United States
Wauwatosa, WI
Posts: 2,470
MoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMoMedic9019 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
You say that as if LMP3 was the only means with which to gain any of that. Do I need to retread the realities of that other class I'm pushing yet again? I certainly hope not because even I'm getting sick of harping on that.
CN was never considered. Was never going to be considered, and never will be. You need to get over that. Post after post after post of useless CN drivel as it was some savior to a class that's well adopted the new format and will continue to do so based upon the orders that have yet to be fulfilled.

Quote:
Not if people involved start questioning the point of paying double the price for cars that are barely any faster.
They won't. The teams buying these cars know they'll eventually be able to sell rides, and their investments are going to be amortized over a number of seasons. Once they are paid off, much like PC, each team will be able to build a business off of it.

Quote:
if they can't justify the increased expense.
you keep saying this... but... clearly plenty of people here and abroad are fine to pay the Canadian pesos to purchase and run the cars.

Quote:
So yes, it IS faith. You have no way of knowing how it's going to turn out. (nor do I,
Whilst I may not be Nostradamus... I'm pretty confident when I say that P3 is going to be quite the success in both IMSA and the US.
MoMedic9019 is offline  
__________________
“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.”
Quote
Old 21 Mar 2017, 02:15 (Ref:3720330)   #1270
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMedic9019 View Post
CN was never considered. Was never going to be considered, and never will be.
And as long as they continue to use the outdated junk, I will be pointing out how bad a decision that was.

Quote:
Post after post after post of useless CN drivel as it was some savior to a class
Excuse me? A savior? Sorry, but no, I've never promoted the class as anything of the sort. Maybe you should pay attention to the points being brought up instead of being dismissive.

I'll note for starters that I've never once said CN should have been adopted over LMP3. You may also note I've never said IMSA should just throw out LMP3.

Quote:
that's well adopted the new format and will continue to do so based upon the orders that have yet to be fulfilled.
ALLEGED orders. We have no way of knowing that the claimed orders have occurred until they're actually filled(if they ever are).

Quote:
They won't. The teams buying these cars know they'll eventually be able to sell rides, and their investments are going to be amortized over a number of seasons.
And those drivers are still going to have to pay more to cover the cost, and eventually those drivers are going to question why they have to pay so much more for something that's not any quicker than the other option.

(and let's not get into when the cars get revised after homologation expires - too many ways as to how that can turn out to try and account for it)

Quote:
Once they are paid off, much like PC, each team will be able to build a business off of it.
Couple big differences between this and PC: The P3 cars aren't in the top series. The PC cars were. The PC cars are also faster vehicles - PC pole at Sebring was 3 seconds faster than P3.

If the P3 cars were as fast as PC, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I wouldn't be using CN to illustrate of what needs to be fixed in LMP3, I'd only be mentioning it when lamenting IMSA's refusal to replace the outdated Elan junkers.

Quote:
you keep saying this... but... clearly plenty of people here and abroad are fine to pay the Canadian pesos to purchase and run the cars.
For now, yes(though not in as large a number as CN cars). There's a reason all of my concerns are regarding the long term.

Quote:
Whilst I may not be Nostradamus... I'm pretty confident when I say that P3 is going to be quite the success in both IMSA and the US.
Like I said, it's all faith. You have it, I don't.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Mar 2017, 02:24 (Ref:3720519)   #1271
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,212
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
And as long as they continue to use the outdated junk, I will be pointing out how bad a decision that was.



Excuse me? A savior? Sorry, but no, I've never promoted the class as anything of the sort. Maybe you should pay attention to the points being brought up instead of being dismissive.

I'll note for starters that I've never once said CN should have been adopted over LMP3. You may also note I've never said IMSA should just throw out LMP3.



ALLEGED orders. We have no way of knowing that the claimed orders have occurred until they're actually filled(if they ever are).



And those drivers are still going to have to pay more to cover the cost, and eventually those drivers are going to question why they have to pay so much more for something that's not any quicker than the other option.

(and let's not get into when the cars get revised after homologation expires - too many ways as to how that can turn out to try and account for it)



Couple big differences between this and PC: The P3 cars aren't in the top series. The PC cars were. The PC cars are also faster vehicles - PC pole at Sebring was 3 seconds faster than P3.

If the P3 cars were as fast as PC, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I wouldn't be using CN to illustrate of what needs to be fixed in LMP3, I'd only be mentioning it when lamenting IMSA's refusal to replace the outdated Elan junkers.



For now, yes(though not in as large a number as CN cars). There's a reason all of my concerns are regarding the long term.



Like I said, it's all faith. You have it, I don't.
But so far nothing you have moaned about and told how much smarter you are than the actual teams has EVER come to fruition so at this point your opinion is looking more vindictive pessimism than actually fully developed points. Just because you whine here and Racer doesn't make you knowledgeable, it means you ruin two sites like a certain often banned DJ from CA.
broadrun96 is online now  
Quote
Old 22 Mar 2017, 05:01 (Ref:3720538)   #1272
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
But so far nothing you have moaned about and told how much smarter you are than the actual teams has EVER come to fruition
I'd be amazed if any things I've referred to ever came true simply because I've never made any predictions nor ever claimed to be smarter than any team. Opinions and concerns =/= predictions or claims of superior intelligence.

Well, I'll partially take that back... There was that ONE thing I made an express and deliberate prediction on - And it still amazes me that nobody's yet put two and two together about that matter, given the overall situation.

Quote:
so at this point your opinion is looking more vindictive pessimism than actually fully developed points. Just because you whine here and Racer doesn't make you knowledgeable, it means you ruin two sites like a certain often banned DJ from CA.
Well, maybe if people actually considered the points I'm trying to make instead of twisting them to suit whatever they'd prefer to cast me as, there'd be fewer problems. I've lost count of how many times I've made point X, and someone's come along to bash on the point by bringing up completely unrelated matters or interpreting my comments in ways that are unsupported by the statements made.

This matter's been a perfect example of the latter, in fact - I proposed that the LMP3s should be sped up and provided a point of comparison to outline why, and I'm getting all but accused of wanting to throw LMP3 to the curb in favor of my "precious CN cars." (that was not an actual quote, of course, just a simplification of how people appear to be looking at how I view CN)

And "whining?" If what I've done is whining to you, I think you need to look around a bit more - not just here, but everywhere. However bitter you may interpret my viewpoints as, actually trying to debate the matter certainly isn't "whining." By the definition you appear to be using, any form of criticism is whining.

Keep in mind, this all started because a certain someone didn't like the fact that I called the lack of a significant gap between the LMP3 and MPC poles at Sebring "unimpressive." Is that whining? No, it's criticism. Not even unfairly harsh criticism, either - criticism with valid logic behind it.

You know what I'd classify as whining? Complaining about an entire 12 hour endurance race simply because the finish wasn't close - something numerous users here and elsewhere are quite guilty of.

At least I'm trying to actually debate my point, and make clear what I've been trying to say amidst a mess of misunderstanding, rather than attacking anybody who dares not agree with it.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Mar 2017, 05:11 (Ref:3720539)   #1273
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,212
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
At least I'm trying to actually debate my point, and make clear what I've been trying to say amidst a mess of misunderstanding, rather than attacking anybody who dares not agree with it.
Debate would actually involve intelligence and an ability to develop in idea, sadly your posts show you are a broken record of because I said so. No actual USEABLE ideas are posted, no speed them up by doing x, y or z. But rather I think no one would want to buy a car that isn't faster, and yet wait what's that?? I hear LMP3 cars actually running. Oops, guess your point was VERY far off the mark. You can NOT make a conclusion that no one would want to run an LMP3 because you think they aren't fast enough. Teams have purchased, drivers have raced and they are building more. But then I guess concrete sales shown by cars on track means nothing to you.

Please try debate by responding with a team, a driver, a SINGLE PERSON in racing who has said LMP3 is too slow and they can't sell it. Even one, a single person who is in the position to actual run a car. That would actually be debate, saying I'm right, I'm right, you'll see I'm right is not debate. Well unless you're Melissa McCarthy's alter ego.
broadrun96 is online now  
Quote
Old 22 Mar 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3720565)   #1274
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Debate would actually involve intelligence and an ability to develop in idea, sadly your posts show you are a broken record of because I said so. No actual USEABLE ideas are posted, no speed them up by doing x, y or z.
You are completely wrong on this. I HAVE given ideas on how to speed them up. One has been revealed to be more problematic than I had been aware of(lightening the cars) the other is still theoretically possible, if possibly not as easy as I implied(boosting the power).

Quote:
But rather I think no one would want to buy a car that isn't faster, and yet wait what's that?? I hear LMP3 cars actually running. Oops, guess your point was VERY far off the mark.
No it's not because, again, my point was NEVER that it couldn't work or isn't working. That's you twisting(whether deliberately or not, I won't assume) what I've said.

My point has always been that IN THE LONGRUN, it is something that COULD BECOME an issue. And it's one that can, and I feel should be, considered and addressed before that possibility can become a reality.

Quote:
You can NOT make a conclusion that no one would want to run an LMP3 because you think they aren't fast enough.
You're right. I can't. That's why I didn't.

Quote:
Teams have purchased, drivers have raced and they are building more. But then I guess concrete sales shown by cars on track means nothing to you.
Again, you're asserting I've said things I simply haven't. While I question the number of orders claimed(and will do so until they all have appeared, as I do for all types of cars in all types of classes, I do not and have never denied the presence of the cars on the track. To claim I've ignored this s to ignore virtually EVEYTHING I've said on the matter.

Quote:
Please try debate by responding with a team, a driver, a SINGLE PERSON in racing who has said LMP3 is too slow and they can't sell it.
I won't. Because I am not, and never was, asserting this is a current issue, or even that it is a GUARANTEED issue for the future(again concerns do not equal predictions).

If you're actually willing to reconsider your assessment of my assertions in light of this, I will be glad to continue debate. Here or in PM depending on moderation's view of whether or not we're dragging this thread off topic.

But if you'd rather remain unwilling to consider the reality of my stance on the matter, there is no point in further debate.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Mar 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3720638)   #1275
fieldodreams79
Veteran
 
fieldodreams79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United States
The Dirty South
Posts: 12,043
fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
My thoughts about seeing them at Sebring is that I liked the pace, the look and the sound. The pace was decent at the sharp end but faded very quickly through the field in the first race. Think the top 2 lapped the field up to 3rd? I'm unsure if it's prep or wheel talent or both, but I'd like to see some improvement in the middle to bottom end of the field. The potential is certainly seems to be there.
fieldodreams79 is offline  
__________________
"Knowing that it's in you and you never let it out
Is worse than blowing any engine or any wreck you'll ever have."
-Mike Cooley
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
is there an LMP3? phillsportscar Sportscar & GT Racing 24 15 Jun 2006 22:56
Time for LMP3? Rubinho Sportscar & GT Racing 44 22 Aug 2005 16:05
New sponsor for Lites? pete55 Australasian Touring Cars. 26 3 Nov 2004 00:05
V8 Lites StuiE Australasian Touring Cars. 7 23 Apr 2002 05:40
Indy lites marcus ChampCar World Series 6 8 Jun 2000 13:18


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.