"The Tap"

[Axeman444]

Okay, Disclaimer: "This is not a WP bash"

Hypothetical Scenario: A certain driver, "X" has used his tyres a bit more than others but in doing so has managed to get into 1st place with a fairly handy gap back to 2nd place. Driver "Y" on better tyres manages to catch X towards the end of the race. Driver Y has his own fairly handy lead over Driver "Z" in 3rd, with Z having reasonable tyre condition compared to X also.

If Y was to catch X, and shortly after tap X into a small slide, and was to get past X, then redress, based on the weekends events, everything is still Kocher.

BUT, consider this. If Y subsequently repassed X, and because of "The Tap", X's margin to Z was reduced to an extent that Z on better tyres caught up and passed X, should Y be penalised, considering without the tap Z would not have caught and/or passed X?

IF Y was penalised, and through no fault of his/her own, Z wins the race, with X 2nd (or possibly worse off), how do you compensate X for the lost result/points/dollars?

Where does one draw the line?

[Pro Racer]

you can't compensate thats racing at the end of the day Y is worse of and finishes way lower then X due to his/her penilty, you can't give X the extra points or $$$ back as who's to say X would of won X could of spun the very next corner after all that was sorted and finished way down the list.

[Peregrine]

More to the point and based on precedent (i.e. Lowndes at Surfers 2006) if driver Y takes half a lap to redress the situation a drive through penalty should apply IF the rules are applied consistently.

[Pro Racer]

or SKaife at Darwin.

[chavez]

Or if you are Garth Tander at Eastern Creek you don't have to readdress at all!

[ford71]

Good call here... I thoguht the same thing.
Skaife tapped Frosty, redressed the situation but immediately pounced.
Could he have passed him if that tap didn;t happen? Possibly, but once the tap has happened you'll never know. Skaife isn't dumb, he knew what he did was to his benefit.

Oops, Sorry driver Y knew the tap would help his ultimate goal of passing.

[F J Nedos]

Or abs(x/y + (Z - 2x) / z3y) + mod(67y + (z/3) *4) could prove to be the winning formula for compensation...

[Lowndesfan6]

Problem is, Lowndes took half a lap, got pinged.
Skaife took half a lap, didn't get pinged.

With Lowndes there's also the issue of Rusty not giving him racing room as the rules have it.

Maybe u should call yourself x man444

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Lowndesfan6

Problem is, Lowndes took half a lap, got pinged.
Skaife took half a lap, didn't get pinged.

With Lowndes there's also the issue of Rusty not giving him racing room as the rules have it.

Maybe u should call yourself x man444

It was already established in the other thread, Skaife passed on the main straight, the next safest part of the track. Lowndes had 3 different straights to re address, but he did not.


In relation to the Z, X, Y thing, Skaife caught winterbottom, tapped him, re addressed, the soon after (NOT immediatly after) he passed him again. Clearly frosty wasn't at 100%, otherwise the other car wouldn't have caught him.

[Muznik]

I was never much good at algebra.

But what if drive "X" is considered to be blocking ? Should driver "Y" be able to reasonably try and pass ?

If it had been driver X & Y nobody would be talking. Its only an issue cause Skaife (or TWR) was involved. Would many care if it had been GRM ?

Seriously comparing the Skaife & Lowndes issue is a bit of a stretch. Skaife gave Frosty a litle bump (wasnt more than that or he would have spun) where as Lowndes completely straight lined a chicane !

Skaife re-addressed ASAP (they were discussing it in commentary & he had let Frosty back thru by the time they came back to him) where as Lowndes disobeyed a few requests from Campbell do the same.

I thought it was just a smart move on Skaife's part to fix a small mistake.

[Luke Plaizier]

You're right. Comparing them isn't a good idea.

Skaife tapped Frosty of his own doing, whereas Lowndes was pushed wide by another car not giving racing room. But talking about short-cutting a chicane, how about we compare this with RK running off the track and skipping a whole section of the track without being penalised. Or how about we don't. Moving on.

I appreciate the sportsmanship that Skaife showed, and my respect for him is growing. He was, however, probably very mindful of the very inconsistent application of rules and figured he had no idea what would happen.

With regard to 'long term blocking', I am of the opinion that the tap-and-pass move should be legal - as long as the 'tappee' is not pushed off the road in any way or has their car damaged. If either of those happen then a redress or penalty should be applied to the 'tapper'.

But this is only an IMHO....


Lukeyson

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by Muznik

If it had been driver X & Y nobody would be talking. Its only an issue cause Skaife (or TWR) was involved. Would many care if it had been GRM ?

probably no-one would be talking if it was say Morris and Gurr, but IMO it's not because it is WP cars it's because it is front runners, it's the same if footy if a big profile play eg Willie Mason is put on report it is talked about but if is is a not-so big profile like Jarrad Hickey it wouldn't be talked about, both play the same position for the same club but one is high profile and one is not, same here if the drivers involved arn't big profile drivers and championship contenders then the incident isn't talked about as much.

[Dazz]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

You're right. Comparing them isn't a good idea.

Skaife tapped Frosty of his own doing, whereas Lowndes was pushed wide by another car not giving racing room.

Ahem?????

Ingall outbraked Lowndes on the inside, and instead of letting Ingall go Lowndes tried to pass around the outside where there is clearly no room at all. It had NOTHING to do with Lowndes not being given racing room.

It was a clear case of a driver not knowing when to simply concede and live to fight another day.

[Micklegend]

No one has commented about the tap and pass of Jason Richards on JC at turn 10 either.

Seems to me drivers just need to make the tap unsettling, not a complete bump, and they will get away with it.

[Pro Racer]

exactlyas long as the car they "tap" dosn't go off track or spin pretty much they will get away with it.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Dazz

Ingall outbraked Lowndes on the inside, and instead of letting Ingall go Lowndes tried to pass around the outside where there is clearly no room at all. It had NOTHING to do with Lowndes not being given racing room.

It didn't? Heck, so if Rusell's car wasn't there, you reckon CL wouldn't have made that corner anyway? Interesting theory I guess. Chicanes are a messy business. I'm not sure you should be quoting this 'outside of the corner' stuff when Cl was pushed wide in the 'inside' of that corner. I see your point, but I still don't agree with it. Let's not toss about that one, it's off topic. And any argument that starts with 'instead of letting him go' is bound to end up with Greg Murphy on Ambrose at Bathurst in '05. Or Greg Murphy on Bargs at Phillip Island in - what - 2001 or something?

Originally Posted by Pro Racer

exactlyas long as the car they "tap" dosn't go off track or spin pretty much they will get away with it.

Let's forget the rulemakers of this sport. Old Man Howard is making so many hair-trigger decisions lately to try to win an election by startling people again, let's get in and try to encourage him to pass federal legislation to allow the 'tap'. What do you reckon?


Lukeyson

[Pro Racer]

yes lets do that, the politics of V8's is as bad as the federal politics .

[Lowndesfan6]

Originally Posted by Dazz

Ahem?????

Ingall outbraked Lowndes on the inside, and instead of letting Ingall go Lowndes tried to pass around the outside where there is clearly no room at all. It had NOTHING to do with Lowndes not being given racing room.

It was a clear case of a driver not knowing when to simply concede and live to fight another day.

Actually, they were side by side going into the left hand part of the chicane, by the current rules, Ingall should have given racing room for Lowndes to be on the inside of the right hand part of the chicane, there was no room, hence Lowndes straightened up and went through.

Note: Yes it is a one lane chicane, but the rules are rules. Lowndes was talking (arguing with his team) because he thought Ingall didn't give room, hence the delay in redressing.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Lowndesfan6

Actually, they were side by side going into the left hand part of the chicane, by the current rules, Ingall should have given racing room for Lowndes to be on the inside of the right hand part of the chicane, there was no room, hence Lowndes straightened up and went through.

Note: Yes it is a one lane chicane, but the rules are rules. Lowndes was talking (arguing with his team) because he thought Ingall didn't give room, hence the delay in redressing.

Going by your name, Lowndes can never be wrong. Even when he is wrong.

Have you actually seen the footage from surfers? for ingall not to give him room, means ingall would have been on the right of the track.
Lowndes was straight cutting the chicane before he was anywhere near the apex. As the rules were clearly stated to every driver, straight cutting a chicane, you have to come to a complete stop, then continue on! he did not, so he was penalised.
Thats not what this thread is about, so deal with it, and the fact lowndes lost the championship by stopping his car on the racing line, when he could've reversed and won! All his own doing!

Take it to another winge thread.

[peckstar]

agree with that. lowndes should have yeilded and now he would be champion

[Luke Plaizier]

Awe heck, my id doesn't have the name 'Lowndes' in it. That's not fair. I want to be slagged for my id as part of an counter argument as well!

We've had cases where people have been pinged for not giving racing room on the outside or the inside, cases where people cutting small corners get pinged and cases where people cut whole sections of a track and don't. Who the heck knows what's right or wrong? And here we all are several months later as clueless as we were that day. The blame here lies on the people not applying whatever rules are made up at the time equally or transparently.

That particular 'questionable decision' is exactly what Skaife would have been mindful of when he made his decision. He wouldn't have had a blinkin clue if what he'd done was acceptable or not - and I dare say the rest of the field wouldn't have had a clue either.


Lukeyson

[Pro Racer]

do we need to be going over things that happened in previous years, talk about whats happining now as thats what is affecting the championship this year something that happened last season has no bearing on this year and if it does in the slightest just bring it up breifly and not have last seasons arguments.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Awe heck, my id doesn't have the name 'Lowndes' in it. That's not fair. I want to be slagged for my id as part of an counter argument as well!

How did i slag his name? I merely mentioned that his love for lowndes would most likely make anything that happens with CL, that CL will be in the right.

Its very hard for a fan to admit their hero did wrong.

[Pro Racer]

i know when my favourite drivers do something wrong they are never wrong until i cool down and re-watch the thing they done wrong.

[Senna05]

I think all judgement calls should be left until the end of a race these days, unless it's a blatant rule break (creeping on the line or a jump, pit lane speeding, or a deliberate smack due to negligible driving).

The after race penalties seem to work well, with exception of Will Davison's on the weekend, which I think was kinda like Footy - if a player has a head high and falls and milks it, they get a harsher penalty, and this sort of happened to Will (And i STILL think Russel nurfed him before he hit frosty. Russel was next in cue around the corner, it makes sense....)

Anyway - Car X, Y and Z... Taps, Nurfs, Total Carnage - In the end, alot of these "rules" the series has are rather "textbook" and should be stripped, with common sense rulings used instead. Some of the camber and inclined on the corners we have don't allow for "racing room" or "B-Pillar" calls, some work to go I reckon!