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Old 19 Apr 2012, 12:55 (Ref:3062016)   #51
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I have signatures turned off, so I don't see it anyway! Maybe you should add "Dad of best driver ever but we've run out of money and will tell you both at every opportunity" to your signature??

Anyway, whilst datalogging is 'cheap', you quickly get into the realms of having a man employed solely to look at it. He'll want some pay, which will be paid for by the driver. So you've suddenly added, let's say' £20k to the budget per year. For what purpose? So that the drivers that you can't engineer talent on can go faster? But you can't engineer talent... So just let them drive?

I would have to assume that Scott will not be using datalogging this year to save some cash? And one set of slicks for the whole year?
You're very quickly getting into the realm of sour grapes regarding Scott. Also, aren't the forum rules, "Attack the post, not the poster"?
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 13:03 (Ref:3062023)   #52
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quite. simple enough. let's not act like little jealous children shall we? we're all grown-ups here. relating your own experiences to a discussion is fine, getting your handbag out is not.

consider that a polite request before i start going through the official forum warnings and stuff. that's just a waste of everybody's time.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 13:18 (Ref:3062029)   #53
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I don't think it's sour grapes. I know I'm a clubbie racer that hasn't got a hope in hell of EVER being a career driver. Lack of talent. Lack of time. Lack of sponsors. Lack of the right attitude etc etc. People say that I must be jealous of Lewis Hamilton because I don't like him, yet they fail to realise that I like/support and am in awe of several other F1 drivers that I have plenty more reason to be jealous of.

Anyhow, I shall try to avoid mentioning it. It's nothing personal as I'm sure both parties are very nice people and I wish them well.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 13:21 (Ref:3062031)   #54
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I can see Tristan point, but my sons both have used datalogging cameras from day one of the cadet karting and its the best invention ever for the dad if not the driver. The AIM systems calibrate the engine power etc etc - so excuses 0-99 of the Racing Drivers Handbook are throw out of the window - and combine that with the camera and we can concerntrate of his driving and not the kit. I actually believe by the accurate assessment of the kit - we save money on being able to check the kit is in 100% condition, esp as an 8yr is not going to be able to give you accurate feedback lap after lap.

Unfortunately, the £1000 or so of data/cameras you now need are as mandatory as tyres, fuel, special "works" £5000 60cc engines etc etc!
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 13:29 (Ref:3062034)   #55
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Unfortunately, the £1000 or so of data/cameras you now need are as mandatory as tyres, fuel, special "works" £5000 60cc engines etc etc!
this is where everything loses its way isn't it? by all means mandate things but make sure they're affordable and don't make too much profit out of them. it just creates a bad feeling between competitors and organisers because you guys *know* you're being ripped off.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 13:56 (Ref:3062043)   #56
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i think everyone is forgeting - motor racing at any level has never been cheap or good "value".

I started in FF in 1990 - a new VD was £13k and average wages were about £12k in the UK. Now a new Mygale is prob £35kish and av wages are around £25k a year. Similarly running in UKFF in 1990 was about £60k and now its prob over £100k. It was never cheap. So motorsport has either been a rip off for years (maybe) or it is just an expensive sport (definately).

Being a karting dad - there is nearly 300 entries at Whilton this weekend - most running with kit/budgets that would make most club racers gasp. Most spend something between £300-500 a weekend. In this price range there are plenty of people wanting to race/can afford it. However, you can't go car racing for that sort of money (a double header entry with BRSCC is what, £400?). Unfortunately, I don;t think there is any great "rip off" in motorsport - its just bloody expensive! And there just isn;t the money in the system to revive things at the moment.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 14:18 (Ref:3062052)   #57
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Unfortunately, I don;t think there is any great "rip off" in motorsport - its just bloody expensive!
really? making *some* profit is fine. after all, we all have to pay the bills. but things like entry fees, especially for national big stuff like f3 and fr2.0 are nuts in this country. i know it costs a fair bit to put on an event but...
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 14:38 (Ref:3062060)   #58
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Race entries should just done a proportinate basis. If I race on a grid for 40 cars for 20mins - why the hell should I pay the same as a 15car grid for the same time.

Hence why I stand and watch my kids now, and don't go roundy roundy...
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 14:43 (Ref:3062062)   #59
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you mean, you still have to pay for it but don't get to have any fun? schoolboy error
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 14:56 (Ref:3062067)   #60
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What the hell happened in this thread?
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 15:03 (Ref:3062070)   #61
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really? making *some* profit is fine. after all, we all have to pay the bills. but things like entry fees, especially for national big stuff like f3 and fr2.0 are nuts in this country. i know it costs a fair bit to put on an event but...
As I have now pointed out several times on several threads, entry fees have risen an unproportional amount compared to both inflation and other commodities in motorsport (such as the cars). If entry fees for the 1970s, 80s and even 90s were in 'today's money' it would work out at between £75-£100 for a single header. At a club level, it is the circuits making a hell of a lot of profit. They are no longer relying on entry and gate money, choosing not to advertise (even locally) meaning that the competitors have to foot the entire bill.

At a national/international level, as well as the circuits making a killing, there is the organiser/promotor who wants to take a cut. I can imagine SRO charge pretty large fees.

Cars, at the lower level (say FF1600) haven't gone up too much above inflation. There was a bit of a boom through the 1970s thanks to the massive inflation under Labour but in relative terms, a new Kent car isn't massively more than it was when it was £1200 ready to race. Once inflation-corrected a FF1600 car is 'only' £6000 than £1200 is worth today (if you get me). The problem with Formula Ford is that the British Championship doesn't operate to these regulations. Instead, the engines are massively more expensive than they used to be and the a new car is over twice the cost of an inflation-corrected Formula Ford 1600 car. Ford has lost the plot by moving away from what made FF1600 such a good starter formula; you can argue for and against technological change but having 7-8 new Ecoboosts this year is poor.

With regards to F3, a new F312 costs around £80,000 as a rolling chassis without engine and electronics. This adds a heft amount if you chose to lease from a top manufacturer. In comparison, the 1000cc F3 cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s cost, in today's money, around £40000-50000 ready to race. Now, that means that and F3 car was around half the cost however, as John Miller has pointed out to me, a new F3 Dallara is competitive for 4 years as opposed to a maximum of two thanks to current FIA regs. This means that actually, for a team a modern car presents better value for money. The problem is, that in 1970 you could run an F3 competitively off the back of a trailer, whereas now you need to pay a team (and all its associated staff).

I know you can't unlearn technology however, with motor racing it has to be said. Is it all about how good the driver is? Or, is it about how good the machinery is? Because, if it is the former, I would argue (and I'm sure many of you will disagree) that it is about providing the drivers with the most 'pure' vehicles in which to prove themselves. This means, no downforce-creating devices, three pedals in the footbox, H-pattern gearshift, no datalogging. However, motorsport is also about showcasing technology (much of which IS NOT road relevant), in which case there is bound to be technological advancement.

Another major problem is sponsorship/prize money. Championships used to offer really, really good prize money. As in, if you were succesful you could actually nearly pay for your racing without having to spend a penny of your own (or a sponsors). Later, as corporate sponsorship entered the sport, it was the job of teams to find a sponsor, enabling them to hire the best drivers (drivers, even at F3, used to be paid a retainer!) Now, it is down to the driver to provide the money. Companies are becoming more savvy and will only get involved if there is a personal connection, real marketing benefit or are interested in motorsport. In the current climate, this severely diminishes the number of potential sponsors.

However, if circuits were willing to advertise their race meetings and reduce ticket prices, they could not only reduce track hire fees but also the spectator numbers would rise, giving a better marketing benefit to sell to sponsors (think of the amount sponsors are paying to appear on the shirt of a League One/Championship football club).

Yes, times have changed and certain aspects of the 1970s will not be recoverable, but that does not mean that the sport should blindly keep digging itself into this financial crisis. Because, although it is pretty good on main land Europe at the moment, if the Eurozone crisis continues to stumble along, the continent will be next in line to follow the UK series.

Right, a lot of what I have said, I'm sure will be flamed. Right, come on then, come and pick some holes in it.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 15:26 (Ref:3062076)   #62
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I have signatures turned off, so I don't see it anyway! Maybe you should add "Dad of best driver ever but we've run out of money and will tell you both at every opportunity" to your signature??

Anyway, whilst datalogging is 'cheap', you quickly get into the realms of having a man employed solely to look at it. He'll want some pay, which will be paid for by the driver. So you've suddenly added, let's say' £20k to the budget per year. For what purpose? So that the drivers that you can't engineer talent on can go faster? But you can't engineer talent... So just let them drive?

I would have to assume that Scott will not be using datalogging this year to save some cash? And one set of slicks for the whole year?

Tristan I don't think anyone would criticise you for racing for fun, I used to (when I could afford it ) & I certainly didn't have the talent or dedication that my children have for the sport. But I always maintain that if you are not enjoying motorsport you shouldn't actually be participating in at any level, career driver, clubman or anything. It costs too much not to enjoy it)

Scott will of course be using data logging this year and as an acomplished data engineer himself from his previous working experience and his motorsport engineering studies he happily is quite capable of engineering & analysing his own data and in fact really enjoys this aspect of the sport. As for tyres he will use the mandatory one set per meeting that he is allowed.

After what looked like being a season on the sidelines he was very fortunate at the last minute to secure a deal in a highly competitive championship. It says much for the topic that we are debating here that two of the most successful championships this year are Formula Renault BARC and F3 MSV Cup which are of course both budget concious championships and whilst no motor racing is cheap these can certainly be cheaper than many. Of course even in BARC there are big teams with big budgets but I hope that Scott will prove this year you don't need a big budget to be competitive.

My main beef is not with drivers that have leaped frogged Scott even though they have achieved far less. You cannot blame them for the way the system works and sadly he is not the only one in this position. But it's about time that the sport became less money centric and stopped wasting talent. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. But I still think there are many things that could be done by Governing Bodies, Manufacturers, championship organisers etc to help improve the situation but sadly people in those positions are less than willing to help because lets face it there is nothing in it for them.

I hope you have an enjoyable season and that goes for everyone else on here whether they be a driver, marshall, mechanic, team owner, official or anyone else involved in any capacity.

Good thread by the way Bella - very thought provoking

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Old 19 Apr 2012, 16:00 (Ref:3062088)   #63
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I read in Autosport that the Clio Cup championship are disappointed with their promotor (SRO) about the deal they get - this was concerning TV.

Whilst I'm sure that that isn't the whole truth, they are also involved in promoting two of the series in the UK - Formula Renault UK and British Formula 3. Maybe they need a kick up the wotsit...
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 16:04 (Ref:3062089)   #64
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i like this sort of thread too - much like the future of f3 thread.

people might get their tiaras knocked askew along the way but it's always interesting to hear different opinions from different places within a paddock. someone on the bank will think something to someone stood on their pitwall watching their retirement fund disappear into the tyre wall for example i think it's really interesting to see in which areas most people agree too.

so far the only thing everyone seems to agree on is that there's too many series around!
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 16:06 (Ref:3062093)   #65
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But it's about time that the sport became less money centric and stopped wasting talent. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. But I still think there are many things that could be done by Governing Bodies, Manufacturers, championship organisers etc to help improve the situation but sadly people in those positions are less than willing to help because lets face it there is nothing in it for them.Dominic Malvern
Dominic, you have mentioned probably what is the main crux of motor sport - it is not seen as a sport, but as a business. Whenever the motorsport gliterati talk of the importance of motor racing in the UK, they speak in terms of jobs, industry and money to the economy. You rarely hear of talent of up and coming drivers being mentioned.

Things like the RSF are excellent and have put drivers on the grid who would not be there without it. The McLaren Autosport is equally good, but the 'prize' does not enable a driver to progress on it's own.

We almost need something along the lines of how athletes are funded. UK Athletics realised that people trying to train and hold down a job delivered less chance for young prospects to progress, hence the selected top talents are funded to a bigger or lesser degree and I believe drop off the scheme if they don't meet the criteria down the line, but it gives them a chance. Of course athletes representing their country are more 'visible' than racing drivers- another part of the problem maybe.

To sum up - I think the purpose of junior formula has been lost in time - it was/is supposed to be a training and proving ground for drivers and engineers but increasingly is just another element of the industry that is feeding the upper levels with fully funded overseas drivers.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 20:03 (Ref:3062246)   #66
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Good thread, really got me thinking, but the result is another long post - so apologies for that.

Can anyone convincingly explain why it’s so important that we define single seater racing categories within a “career ladder”? It seems to me that very few drivers actually become true professionals, and a tiny proportion become F1 drivers, but a very large number race basically for their own enjoyment and do not think they are going to become F1 drivers or even professionals. So why isn’t the sport thought of as a range of categories with different price points aimed at attracting people with different racing tastes, and different budgets: like any other consumer service proposition (eg holidays). Some of these categories would be attractive to spectators, some wouldn’t; and some would be supported by professional teams, some wouldn’t. It seems to me that the ladder idea has one immediate downside – all the “lower” categories which are defined as “low” are automatically of lower “value”. This is a bit like in holiday terms saying that we should all aspire to going on holiday to the moon, so merely having a holiday on the beach is a poor substitute. It isn’t of interest and it’s not worth even bothering to provide proper facilities for the beach - you would only go on a beach holiday if it lets you gain points for the moon ride.

As I understand it the argument in favour of the “ladder” structure – to which the MSA seems to subscribe, partly I think to justify their Elite Driver approach – is that getting British drivers into F1 generates massive media interest in the sport, which in turn attracts spectators to events and more participants and sponsors, and so creates benefits at all levels. My observation is that the first part of this explanation holds water, but not the second. That is – there is a lot of media interest created, but this doesn’t create any significant benefits for the majority of people engaged in the sport. For example: it seems to me that, Silverstone apart, all the circuit improvements that we have seen in the last few years (and they have got better I think) have been funded principally by investment justified on the back of income from the corporate, trackday, club and national participants. There isn’t much corporate sponsorship, TV income or any other form of finance drip-through from F1 or the interest that it generates: not that I can see. Would the big crowds at BTCC (whatever I think about that…) and superbikes have been less if we didn’t have any British F1 drivers? Does the F1 driver halo effect explain why there are a lot of big teams based in the UK? This certainly does generate real value. Is it because we have many British drivers in F1, or is it because in the 70s, 80s, 90s Britain build up a world lead in (some key parts of) motorsport technology and expertise? And we achieved this by designing cars and engines and gearboxes etc, not by running F3 teams.

Come to that, would we anyway have more British F1 drivers if we had now the sort of breadth and level of participation that we had in single seaters in the the UK in the 70s and 80s. A few posts back Ivanalesi asked “How many people do you think were involved in motor sport back in the 70s-80s compared to now?” In answering this I’m not sure how to define “motor sport” or “involved”. I guess there are more people now making their living by supplying parts, equipment and services into motor sport than there were then. But if we look at single seater racing: as an impoverished graduate in a new job, in 1976 I could afford to do 30+ Formula Ford races each year with a three year old FF1600 (bought for £1250 with a bank loan - no money left to actually buy any food it’s true), and when you arrived at a Brush Fusegear round there would likely be an entry of 60+ FF1600s. You had to be in the first 10 of the heat just to get into the Final: and that would be only one of two or three heavily supported FF1600 championships racing that week. I suspect Barnettracing would have loved it. I did.

In that era I can recall racing in the same events as people like Mansell, Daly, Warwick, etc etc, who were driving the same category of car as me (albeit they were going a hell of a lot quicker) using much the same level of equipment. Where is the evidence that that sort of financially accessible “broad participation” base is less effective in bringing real talent to the fore, rather than the current career ladder in which even the first rungs are financially unattainable for most people? The current structure often to me seems more designed to respond to the needs of the professional service providers rather than the drivers. This thread has already seen some subtle and not-so-subtle inserts from members of that interest-group.

Another related thought: what if F1 were to fall apart tomorrow? Say BE leaves the F1 stage for some reason; and the teams ripped it all apart in a power struggle (just a “what if” example…) Given the mess that much of the single seater ladder is in now anyway, do you think that the F1-driven ladder structure such as we now have would have any coherence or value at all left in it? I think we would be left with a complete shambles, and a lot of good people servicing the present ladder might be out of a job fairly quickly, as it fragmented. How likely is that?

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Old 19 Apr 2012, 20:54 (Ref:3062274)   #67
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To sum up - I think the purpose of junior formula has been lost in time - it was/is supposed to be a training and proving ground for drivers and engineers but increasingly is just another element of the industry that is feeding the upper levels with fully funded overseas drivers.
Reading this thread that is the question I am asking, as in what is the purpose of all of this?

Is the end goal to provide the most luxurious and technologically advanced set up so racing services companies can sell seats at the highest price and be able to invoice a dictator's cronies slush fund or some billionaire telecom king for endless parts and services?

Is the end goal to provide formulas with good wheel to wheel competition that are cost effective and open to multiple chassis?

Is the end goal to provide commercially viable formulas that entertain the public?
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 10:26 (Ref:3062553)   #68
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Is the end goal to provide commercially viable formulas that entertain the public?
No.

The goal should be to provide a viable ladder accessible to those with talent, even those with relatively limited means, who eventually might make it to F1 and then entertain the public.

In that, the FAI and MSA are currently failing quite spectacularly.
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 10:43 (Ref:3062562)   #69
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After what looked like being a season on the sidelines he was very fortunate at the last minute to secure a deal in a highly competitive championship. It says much for the topic that we are debating here that two of the most successful championships this year are Formula Renault BARC and F3 MSV Cup which are of course both budget concious championships and whilst no motor racing is cheap these can certainly be cheaper than many. Of course even in BARC there are big teams with big budgets but I hope that Scott will prove this year you don't need a big budget to be competitive.

Dominic Malvern
Dominic, good luck with the season but I can't help thinking that no amount of talent is going to help Scott progress any further without the big budget required. Better to spend the money you have on a Ginetta G50 and race in the Ginetta Supercup - TV coverage, perceptions of talent available to a wider audience and the chance to step up with a Ginetta funded prize drive if you win the class. OK, so its not as pure as single seaters but you may just get some semblance of a 'career' out of it.

Edited to add, and my final sentence demonstrates whats wrong with single seater racing in this country. It just isn't a viable option for the 'average' brit; F1 may still get big TV audiences but at national level single seaters are an increasingly esoteric part of the sport in this country, unless we talk about club level racing where a man and a van can still enjoy the single seater thrill in F Ford 1600, F Vee, & Monoposto etc

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Old 20 Apr 2012, 12:07 (Ref:3062599)   #70
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No.

The goal should be to provide a viable ladder accessible to those with talent, even those with relatively limited means, who eventually might make it to F1 and then entertain the public.

In that, the FAI and MSA are currently failing quite spectacularly.
No. Not just F1. The job should be to prepare them for a career in top line motorsport, whether it's F1, rally, touring cars, or sportscars. The focus on F1 should not begin until they get into the big cars.
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 13:11 (Ref:3062627)   #71
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FFfan should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFFfan should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFFfan should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
Dominic, good luck with the season but I can't help thinking that no amount of talent is going to help Scott progress any further without the big budget required. Better to spend the money you have on a Ginetta G50 and race in the Ginetta Supercup - TV coverage, perceptions of talent available to a wider audience and the chance to step up with a Ginetta funded prize drive if you win the class. OK, so its not as pure as single seaters but you may just get some semblance of a 'career' out of it.

Edited to add, and my final sentence demonstrates whats wrong with single seater racing in this country. It just isn't a viable option for the 'average' brit; F1 may still get big TV audiences but at national level single seaters are an increasingly esoteric part of the sport in this country, unless we talk about club level racing where a man and a van can still enjoy the single seater thrill in F Ford 1600, F Vee, & Monoposto etc
Thanks Andy. We did look at Ginetta Super Cup (G55 & G50) but unfortunately even that was quite some way beyond our means. I think perhaps budgets there are a bit higher than people imagine them to be.

I cannot go into the exact details of Scott's deal with Cullen Motorsport & Cliff Dempsey Racing but we are very pleased with it and involves Scott working in a consultancy role with the team as well as driving himself.

We are very happy to be in BARC FR this season, with perhaps also the odd guest appearance elsewhere, and very open minded about any opportunities for Scott to continue competing beyond 2012.

DM
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 15:11 (Ref:3062674)   #72
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I was reading an issue of Autosport from over a year ago last night with a column in it about the "good ole days" in the 1970's when you had hundreds of FF1600's and you could race just about every weekend, there was prize money available to offset costs and who the real talent was a clearer picture.

To me I think we need to get back to something like that, rather than a plethora of one make championships that come and go.
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 15:18 (Ref:3062680)   #73
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haven't had the chance to read all the posts so far yet but what are peoples opinions of the way the ffsa manage their system now? they might have lost their national series but after setting up f4 does the 4 drivers they have in f1 in one capacity or another show they've got *something* right?
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 15:32 (Ref:3062684)   #74
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The point i was trying to inarticulatly make, was there is no a shortage of kids wanting to move out of karts into cars for about £30-50k mark. At the moment, UK single seater have nothing to offer.

Address that - and then you will start a ladder system. If you have few coming in at the bottom of the ladder, how do you expect anyone to progess.

FF was that angle way back when - les Froggies have F4, les Belgies used to have FRenault F1600 etc etc.. We need the same in the UK .... if you have the bottom end of the ladder healthy - then these cars will feed/spawn "Club" series and the whole thing self perpectuates - if not - u end up on a forum moaning about it.

When FZetec was healthy (ie strong Senior and Junior and Southern and Scottish series) it made for a much better single seater scene.. EcoPoops or whatever they are called - are not the answer at £35k a chassis....
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 19:46 (Ref:3062792)   #75
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Originally Posted by JNWRF01 View Post
The point i was trying to inarticulatly make, was there is no a shortage of kids wanting to move out of karts into cars for about £30-50k mark. At the moment, UK single seater have nothing to offer.

Address that - and then you will start a ladder system. If you have few coming in at the bottom of the ladder, how do you expect anyone to progess.

FF was that angle way back when - les Froggies have F4, les Belgies used to have FRenault F1600 etc etc.. We need the same in the UK .... if you have the bottom end of the ladder healthy - then these cars will feed/spawn "Club" series and the whole thing self perpectuates - if not - u end up on a forum moaning about it.

When FZetec was healthy (ie strong Senior and Junior and Southern and Scottish series) it made for a much better single seater scene.. EcoPoops or whatever they are called - are not the answer at £35k a chassis....
I hate to shoot you down in flames because you have made some very valid points & I do agree in spirit with your point of view but when was FF Zetec ever healthy? It was responsible for reducing grid sizes to their lowest lever level ever in the class and whilst I agree with your sentiment with needing an entry level single seater class in the £30k price bracket we had that with both the BRDC Single Seater Championship & Formula Zip and both are history. In their place we have the six figure Formula Intersteps and woeful grids of 8 cars. No I don't understand it either!!
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