Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27 Jan 2016, 15:31 (Ref:3608488)   #1
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
BSCC regs for late 70s

Looking for some help from the forum.

I've recently got hold of one of the Hughes of Beaconsfield Celicas that ran in the 1979 round of the BSCC, and the first part of the 'return to track' process is the HTP.

As discussed on other threads, this championship was run under the Group 1 umbrella, but with a few 'series specific' rules or allowances, particularly the wheels (we reckon)

We know both cars ran all the races on chunky little red Minilites.....




But we also know they weren't homologated by Toyota, and at the moment my MSA inspector for the HTP says we can't use them unless we can find a set of the rules for the Championship allowing their use.

The 79 Blue Book, incidentally, says, referring to Touring Cars..."Appendix J Group 1 and modifications as defined in regulations available on application"

Hopefully someone reading the forum once applied for these regulations, and still has a copy.
Your help would be very much appreciated.

Mark
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2016, 15:37 (Ref:3608489)   #2
Peter Mallett
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
 
Peter Mallett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
England
Here and there
Posts: 37,234
Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
A similar problem to mine with my Works Rover. The BSCC regs were based on the homologation papers plus any homologated mods. Ford f'rinstance homologated the IDA as an "export" option. They also inserted 7" rims.

Rover OTOH came along in 1980 and homologated very little. They relied on the Blue Book and App J. Now the MSA is effectively denying all knowledge of the class. Only Goodwood and MRL currently recognise its existence.

I do know that the FIA is trying to sort something out but with all due credit to them, they are also struggling to resolve it.

Good luck with your quest. As for me

Edit. Welcome to the forum.
Peter Mallett is offline  
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead.
Quote
Old 28 Jan 2016, 14:45 (Ref:3608708)   #3
GrahamH
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
England
Bedfordshire
Posts: 45
GrahamH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just a thought, but have you considered running the Celica in HSCC 70s Roadsports?

That way, you don't need a HTP. You can run as an "Invitation" for one or two races without needing to comply with the HSCC regs, assuming the HSCC say yes to a polite request to take part.
GrahamH is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jan 2016, 15:53 (Ref:3608721)   #4
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks Peter, does it seem odd to you that this very high profile series ran for about seven years under it's own set of rules, yet nobody seems to have a copy of them?
Either there's some sort of conspiracy, or the rules were more of a 'concept'......a bit like the horizon.

And thanks for the suggestion Graham, but the fact is, although the car is very correct and unmolested, it's a long way from being a race car, and I've yet to think about where to race it.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jan 2016, 13:47 (Ref:3609242)   #5
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBev View Post
Thanks Peter, does it seem odd to you that this very high profile series ran for about seven years under it's own set of rules, yet nobody seems to have a copy of them?
Either there's some sort of conspiracy, or the rules were more of a 'concept'......a bit like the horizon.

And thanks for the suggestion Graham, but the fact is, although the car is very correct and unmolested, it's a long way from being a race car, and I've yet to think about where to race it.
Mark,

All the rules of the BSCC are in the RAC so-called "Blue Book" which was edited as for the FIA Yearbook every year with the regulations included.
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 1 Feb 2016, 11:10 (Ref:3610472)   #6
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid


Louis, above is a scan of the relevant 1979 RAC Blue Book, and half way down the right hand side you'll see the rather cryptic Touring Cars description, I assume I have the correct book?
At the moment this is the closest I've got, and I feel it's unlikely to impress the FIA.
Any more ideas?.................Please!
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 11:25 (Ref:3611190)   #7
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBev View Post


Louis, above is a scan of the relevant 1979 RAC Blue Book, and half way down the right hand side you'll see the rather cryptic Touring Cars description, I assume I have the correct book?
At the moment this is the closest I've got, and I feel it's unlikely to impress the FIA.
Any more ideas?.................Please!
From 1980 there were some Entrants Eligibility Declaration made by the RAC and the teams to define the cars properly with the references to what was "as from" the FIA Grp 1 Homologation and what was allowed and on the car from the BSCC rules. Other than that, I have the full one from 1981 and 1982 which were fully included in the RAC book and pretty much don't change from one year to the other.

Best would be to ask the MSA for copies ?
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 11:45 (Ref:3611193)   #8
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks Louis, but I'm confident my inspector and the FIA will only accept 1979 relevant paperwork, even if nothing had changed through 79 to 82.

I've spoken to the MSA on two separate occasions on this matter, and both times they admitted they'd have the necessary rules and regs somewhere, but they wouldn't know how to find them and they wouldn't try.

Chocolate teapots come to mind.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 12:22 (Ref:3611200)   #9
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBev View Post
Looking for some help from the forum.

We know both cars ran all the races on chunky little red Minilites.
But we also know they weren't homologated by Toyota, and at the moment my MSA inspector for the HTP says we can't use them unless we can find a set of the rules for the Championship allowing their use.
Mark
Mark, I'm interpreting the above as saying that you can't use the wheels on an HTP application, not that you wouldn't be able to race on them.

If that is all that is different to the homologation, could you not fit correct wheels for the HTP? Looking beyond that, I would be surprised if any race series organiser turned the car away because you run the historically correct wheels, even if different to the homologated ones. Motor Racing Legends, for instance, now seem to be aware of the complications surrounding BSCC regs.

Another thought regarding the search for said Regulations- the RAC Club in Pall Mall has the most comprehensive racing / motoring archive and library of anywhere. I'm wondering if they could be lurking there?

Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 12:55 (Ref:3611204)   #10
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mike....funnily enough we were going to present the HTP form with a choice of photos, one with the red Minilites on and the other with standard steels.
We then realised the required 'period' photo would only ever show the car on the Minilites, and we thought this would queer the pitch with the FIA...so I thought..."easy, we'll just find proof they were used legally and that prevents any confusion"
I'll admit, it's now turned into a bit of a crusade, an interesting one though.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 13:01 (Ref:3611207)   #11
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And thanks for the tip re the RAC Club, I'll fire an E Mail off forthwith.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 14:02 (Ref:3611233)   #12
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
I've been in the library (as a guest ) and it is very impressive. They have all the old blue books and other relevant publications, but I would have thought someone would have already checked for the BSCC stuff..... It may be that only way to find out is visit, and for that you may need a member to invite you as their guest. Not sure if they let 'anyone' in for research.

Not sure if period pic would queer your pitch if different wheels. Check with inspector, or if Louis reads this, he may know. I thought main idea of period proof photo was for livery / colour scheme, but that may be wide of the mark...

Good luck, and I love the car!
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 14:18 (Ref:3611239)   #13
Peter Mallett
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
 
Peter Mallett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
England
Here and there
Posts: 37,234
Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
There's also a good swimming pool in the basement.
Peter Mallett is offline  
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead.
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 16:25 (Ref:3611284)   #14
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I've sent an "official" email to the RAC Librarian. Let's hope they've kept something......!
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 3 Feb 2016, 16:47 (Ref:3611290)   #15
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Many thanks Louis.....fingers crossed.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Feb 2016, 15:08 (Ref:3611594)   #16
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just to keep the juices flowing, and in an effort to prompt anyone who might have been part of the 74-82 Gp 1 (+ a half) regs, to rummage through their files and check for period paperwork, here's a cracking shot of Win Percy and Richard Lloyd knocking lumps out of each other at Mallory 79.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Feb 2016, 09:34 (Ref:3613322)   #17
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
We're in touch with the RAC Library, they have all blue books available, then, let's see if they have the copies of the regulations somewhere as well !

Will keep you posted.
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 10 Feb 2016, 10:45 (Ref:3613610)   #18
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Many thanks for your continued help Louis.

Mark
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2016, 13:26 (Ref:3615443)   #19
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Well, had a feedback from the RAC Library, it would appear that only the 1980 and 1981 regulations of the BSCC were published in the so-called "RAC Blue Book" in period.

There are some fragments available in other places but not all. And we are investigating other sources as well so I will keep you updated...!
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2016, 13:47 (Ref:3615455)   #20
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Thanks for checking anyway, Louis! It was worth a shot...

As I understand it, what's needed are the individual manufacturers supplementary homologation papers? It was suggested to me that only those for the Capri are in the public domain.....

Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2016, 15:05 (Ref:3615476)   #21
Duddha
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Nations
Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 455
Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Thanks for checking anyway, Louis! It was worth a shot...

As I understand it, what's needed are the individual manufacturers supplementary homologation papers? It was suggested to me that only those for the Capri are in the public domain.....

Mike,

there were regulations based on the official FIA Homologations and what was FURTHER permitted or not, then came in the late years (definitely 1980/81) the Entrants Eligibility Declarations which detailed the cars as they were with more details.

At the moment, I've only seen the Capri one and I'm chasing others as well as the general ruling.

Cheers, Louis.
Duddha is offline  
__________________
The good, the bad, the ugly, it's the law.
Quote
Old 18 Feb 2016, 16:28 (Ref:3615762)   #22
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks Gentlemen....it does, indeed, seem that the 1979 regs are not really available....however, the car did compete in a few rounds of the 1980 BSCC.....and these regs are (as you say Louis) printed in the Blue Book.

We'll therefore build the car to these, they were probably pretty much the same anyway.

We did track down a full set of 1980 regs (together with amendments) before they got into the Blue Book, and this is the first page. It maybe of interest.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Mar 2017, 09:37 (Ref:3722108)   #23
yelwoci
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
United Kingdom
London
Posts: 235
yelwoci should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Guess we need to find an RAC member with some spare time!
yelwoci is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2017, 14:25 (Ref:3722432)   #24
Peter Mallett
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
 
Peter Mallett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
England
Here and there
Posts: 37,234
Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Ian,

What you need is what I had to do. I had to find documentary evidence in the form of magazine articles with pictures, to demonstrate that the car ran as it is now.

The Blue Book provides the basics for the permitted mods but it doesn't specify what parts you can use thus whilst it says you can change the carb as long as there are no more chokes, I had to demonstrate that the IDA was what the Rover ran in period. Oddly enough it was a French magazine from that time that had the proof.

There may also be issues where we want to run what is homologated but was never run on the car. It would comply with the period regs but would not meet, as I understand it, the App K requirements for the car to run as in period. And here I'm talking about the particular car not the model. If you build a replica to the regs then as long as you aren't trying to make it a copy of the original car I suspect you can use the homologated parts. Again I'm somewhat uncertain here.

It's not an easy task by any means and in this respect the FIA deserves a pat on the back for listening to those of us who enjoyed this period and have now provided a means for us to get the cars recognized. Believe me I know the pain some of them have gone through to get this to where it is right now.
Peter Mallett is offline  
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead.
Quote
Old 4 Apr 2017, 11:33 (Ref:3723700)   #25
MarkBev
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location:
Chichester
Posts: 19
MarkBev should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well, as a few folk predicted, the whole HTP process has ground to a shuddering halt.....
.....after hours of research, and pestering of people in the know, countless photographs and draft forms, my MSA Registrar has just given up and stopped all communication.
A quick call to the MSA reveals they intend to keep the few hundred quid they charged for assigning a number to me.... Better luck next time.
Having raced under the MSA banner for the best part of thirty years I wasn't expecting quite such uselessness....maybe I should have been less naïve and listened to the cynics in the first place.
MarkBev is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BMW 633 Donington Incident Vehicle late 70s Gerry Taylor Historic Image Archive 4 2 Feb 2012 11:28
Pre '66 BSCC/BTCC regs help? zefarelly Motorsport History 4 22 Nov 2008 19:32
BSCC devon kev Motorsport History 4 22 Jan 2008 22:44
Top Hat Regs & CTCRC regs. (Spin off from Mallory Park thread) Peter Mallett Historic Racing Today 102 7 Nov 2006 14:57


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.