When should Michael Schumacher retire?

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't think the move was any worse than a number we have seen this year and it was completed in one smooth move and it should have been obvios to Barrichello that that was the side Schimacher was going to defend. He forced the issue and nearly ended up paying for it.

Schumacher apologised which is clearly something that neither Vettel nor Kovalainnen who was not even in the race or in danger of taking any points managed to do.

The consequences at that particular point could have been awful, but then so could they have been in any other of a number of incidents.

Personally I have had more than enough of a whole lot of idiot journalists who have never even driven an F1 or probably raced trying to make headlines by bagging Schumacher.

I hope he has huge success purely to spite those nitwits!

If this incident did not involve Schumacher then there would not have been such a fuss and if the sport had been properly policed from the beginning then it is unlikely that this situation would have arisen.

Since I assume you have never driven a F1 car (have you ever raced a car? I'm guessing not) or been a motor-sport journalist (who are generally considerably more knowledgeable on the subject that most), perhaps you should refrain from writing such garbage as well. As far as I remember, there have been NO moves this dangerous this year. This one really was in a class of its own. AFAICT, this is perhaps the only deliberate move this years that could have caused bad injury.

As to it being being biased against MS, I would say exactly the same thing if ANY of the drivers on the grid had done that. It's not MS specific - it dangerous driving specific. This was a very dangerous move, as most of the driving world has commented (see the latest Motorsport News), and was completely unnecessary. Yes, you are allowed to defend. This wasn't defending, it was a late move, perhaps malicious, that nearly slapped two cars into a concrete wall at 180mph. How you (and Beau1) can defend that sort of behavior is beyond me.

[JamesH]

Let me just add (and some non-F1 drivers can try and argue against these comments if they really want, but I don't think its worth it)

“Schumacher has never been able to differentiate between hard racing and what’s beyond a reasonable line – and clearly he still can’t,” Martin Brundle.


“To endanger another competitor in such a way is totally unnecessary. I cannot understand why he does those things,” Niki Lauda.


“It was one of the most blatant abuses of another driver that I have seen,” Sir Jackie Stewart.



“It was an idiotic manoeuvre that was extremely dangerous,” Eddie Irvine


“Michael went over the boundary of what is right,” John Watson.


“That could have been a horrible accident,” David Coulthard.


“He’s a seven-time world champion, He knew exactly what he was doing, he did it absolutely deliberately. A collision could have been fatal.” Alexander Wurz.


“I still have shivers after watching that move, It was unnecessary and very dangerous.” Marc Gene.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by wnut

Should they divide the main straight into lanes? Too hard to police I guess.

Monza had two lanes on their main straight long, long ago...

[ASCII Man]

They're all just jealous.

[Knowlesy]

Wow. Just wow.

Never has so much drivel been written by so few.

[Super Hans]

Can anyone name a driver or journalist who has defended Schumacher in this instance? I can't find anyone. It seems that beyond a couple of people on here, the condemnation is unanimous.

[pannenmann]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't think the move was any worse than a number we have seen this year and it was completed in one smooth move and it should have been obvios to Barrichello that that was the side Schimacher was going to defend. He forced the issue and nearly ended up paying for it.

Schumacher apologised which is clearly something that neither Vettel nor Kovalainnen who was not even in the race or in danger of taking any points managed to do.

The consequences at that particular point could have been awful, but then so could they have been in any other of a number of incidents.

Personally I have had more than enough of a whole lot of idiot journalists who have never even driven an F1 or probably raced trying to make headlines by bagging Schumacher.

I hope he has huge success purely to spite those nitwits!

If this incident did not involve Schumacher then there would not have been such a fuss and if the sport had been properly policed from the beginning then it is unlikely that this situation would have arisen.

You think? Better think twice!

Schumacher only kind of apologized, and did so because Merc forced him. They did so because of the ****storm coming down on them. He himself does not see him at fault, I'm quite sure about that one - just as Vettel never assumes he did something wrong.

True. But not many other incidents were that close to lead to these awful consequences, and not many other incdents resulted from a deliberate move.

And ask the whole lot of idiot ex-F1 drivers who have driven an F1 or probably raced trying to point out how horrible that move was.

Hope springs eternal...

If this incident did not involve Schumacher then we would have probably seen a race ban. Plus it's a bit naive to think that a 7 times WDC messing up this bad won't generate more public feedback than some japanese paydriver messing up. Also wasn't Schumacher the one who always advocated safety in F1? Take his previous history into account, and you won't be surprised at all by the reaction of the media / public if you manage to look at it in a neutral way.

Oh and btw, if people are just jealous, why didn't they (both media and ppl on the forum here including me) also come down on Schumi when he overtook Alonso "under" SC conditions? The common opinion was back then, that he was right to do so and it was actually a nice move. Seems like it's not "them" who are biased when concerning Schumi's action.

[Super Hans]

"Don't force the issue Rubens, go round him on the left."

[pannenmann]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Can anyone name a driver or journalist who has defended Schumacher in this instance? I can't find anyone. It seems that beyond a couple of people on here, the condemnation is unanimous.

All drivers approved Schumi's actions, it's just the ignorant, jelous and bad journalists and anti-Schumi guys that are in uproar. And his ex-teammates whom got humiliated by his genious and now take revenge of course.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by pannenmann

Seems like it's not "them" who are biased when concerning Schumi's action.

Ofcourse they are, they wished they had even a tiny fraction of the talent and wealth of Michael Schumacher, ruler of the Universe.
So they take it out on him out of sheer envy.

[beau1]

Could someone who does not have an automatic knee-jerk reflex, at an opinion that is different from the established view, please point to me where I have said a) the move was the best thing to do or b) it wasnt dangerous.

And while youre at it look up the word 'scapegoat'. Did Schumacher go too far? Maybe for some but someone was going to be made an example of when we've had a season with the return of weaving, team orders, cars flying upside-down and allegedly illigal cars.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by beau1

And while youre at it look up the word 'scapegoat'. Did Schumacher go too far? Maybe for some but someone was going to be made an example of when we've had a season with the return of weaving, team orders, cars flying upside-down and allegedly illigal cars.

I don't think he has been made an example of.

I think the 10 place grid penalty was pretty lenient.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I don't think he has been made an example of.

I think the 10 place grid penalty was pretty lenient.

You see, this is where my major problem is. For most of these examples of 'bad or dangerous driving', without an accident occuring the FiA had a nice little warning system going on.
To be honest Id agree with some sort of points system for these incidents which someone else previously mentioned.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by beau1

You see, this is where my major problem is. For most of these examples of 'bad or dangerous driving', without an accident occuring the FiA had a nice little warning system going on.

It's worth noting that Schumacher escaped punishment for his moves on Massa and Kubica in Montreal. In fact, he didn't even get a warning. The idea that the stewards are singling him out doesn't stack up.

[chris bailey]

Hmm! I've resisted commenting on this until now. I'll admit to being a huge fan of Michael's, but that doesn't inevitably affect my interpretation of events. It was a hard move which developed into a dangerous situation. However, has anyone mentioned the white line that designates the edge of the track alongside the pitwall? Did Michael leave a car's width of track for Rubens to stick his nose in, or was Rubens using the track and concrete apron alongside the wall as his available space? Perhaps that line (on the pit straight) should be interpreted as the limit for overtaking? Just a thought.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

However, has anyone mentioned the white line that designates the edge of the track alongside the pitwall? Did Michael leave a car's width of track for Rubens to stick his nose in, or was Rubens using the track and concrete apron alongside the wall as his available space?

I don't know. I'd need to review the footage or see photographs from the beginning of the move. Still, even if Rubens did cross the line (literally and metaphorically), Michael shouldn't have been squeezing him towards the wall whilst they were running parallel at 170-190mph.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

Hmm! I've resisted commenting on this until now. I'll admit to being a huge fan of Michael's, but that doesn't inevitably affect my interpretation of events. It was a hard move which developed into a dangerous situation. However, has anyone mentioned the white line that designates the edge of the track alongside the pitwall? Did Michael leave a car's width of track for Rubens to stick his nose in, or was Rubens using the track and concrete apron alongside the wall as his available space? Perhaps that line (on the pit straight) should be interpreted as the limit for overtaking? Just a thought.

At the point where RB started to overtake, it appears he was entirely within the white lines, although its very close. MS was the one who pushed him over the line. And then some.

Had this incident been on a straight I would say there wouldn't be the issue that there is, but against a concrete barrier is where it all goes a bit pear shaped.

Latest news is that the stewards WOULD have disqualified him had there been time.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I don't think he has been made an example of.

I think the 10 place grid penalty was pretty lenient.

So do I, but in one interview with Derek Warwick that I read, it was almost as though the stewards gave credit to Schumacher for his past achievements but turned a blind eye to his past misdemeanours.

He actually says here that they could have disqualified him from the next race or two and in my view that would have been more appropriate. Missing Spa and Monza would really have hurt him and Mercedes have a very competent reserve driver in Heidfeld.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by wnut

The bias against Schumacher is rabid and largely marked by jealousy.

I wouldn't say so. Do you mean jealous of his career? If you're talking about ex-F1 drivers, I don't think they'd be jealous of his current results. They'd fancy their chances of having done better than him now in a similar situation. If you're talking about current F1 drivers, I think they find it amusing how poorly Schumacher is driving.

Originally Posted by pannenmann

All drivers approved Schumi's actions, it's just the ignorant, jelous and bad journalists and anti-Schumi guys that are in uproar. And his ex-teammates whom got humiliated by his genious and now take revenge of course.

I think he's showing he was never as genius as he was made out to be.

Originally Posted by wnut

That having been said he is by far the best "rookie" on the grid.

I know you put it between speech marks to say he is not an actual rookie, but come on, he's not anything like a rookie. You've got guys like Kobayashi showing how to drive and a guy who started in 1991 with years of experience doing poorly.

To try to bring the thread more on topic..

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher was "encouraged" to retire, his performances this year have been truly atrocious - with a driver who could provide better results, in the form of Nick Heidfeld, sitting there doing his GPDA Arthur Scargill bit in between thumb twiddling sessions in the Merc garage.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It's worth noting that Schumacher escaped punishment for his moves on Massa and Kubica in Montreal. In fact, he didn't even get a warning. The idea that the stewards are singling him out doesn't stack up.

Schumacher did nothing wrong during the Kubica incident. Neither of them would give up on the place, that was all. He came out of the pits and defended his position ONCE and then took the racing line going into the corner. Kubica just decided to bing one up the inside and see what would happen, he was neither ahead, nor was he on the racing line (Schumacher was believe it or not, that may come to a shock for some of you) so there is really, no real blame you can put on Schumacher for that one. Everything was perfectly within the rules. If you watch the in-car footage you can clearly see this.
Anyways, if Schumacher was at fault for what was and is percieved as a racing incident then he was actually the one who lost out due to having to do another pitstop and it follows the unwritten rule of if the apparent guilty party has lost out then they won't get punished (same could be said for Webber at Valencia - In which case he should have also recieved at least a warning for).


Now, the Massa one is a bit more debatable I'll give you that, however, I was taught in go-karting never to attempt a pass around the outside of a corner, when the natural line of the corner goes towards the outside upon entry because you're always going to get pushed towards the barriers and thats exactly what happened here. Also, Massa managed to completly cock his breaking up and would have probably skipped the chicane in any case..

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If you're talking about current F1 drivers, I think they find it amusing how poorly Schumacher is driving.

Doesn't seem to include Webber, who commented on lapping someone of the calibre of Michael as being pretty special.

What a top guy that Mark Webber is, obviously recognizing the superior skill of Michael Schumacher.

[Born Racer]

Maybe it doesn't include him, although I think he was amused hence the comment. Schumacher is driving so badly that in a competitive zone, it's probably a good feeling to be the one doing the winning and seeing Schumacher doing so badly.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by beau1

Schumacher did nothing wrong during the Kubica incident. Neither of them would give up on the place, that was all. He came out of the pits and defended his position ONCE and then took the racing line going into the corner. Kubica just decided to bing one up the inside and see what would happen, he was neither ahead, nor was he on the racing line so there is really, no real blame you can put on Schumacher for that one. Everything was perfectly within the rules. If you watch the in-car footage you can clearly see this.

Now, the Massa one is a bit more debatable I'll give you that, however, I was taught in go-karting never to attempt a pass around the outside of a corner, when the natural line of the corner goes towards the outside upon entry because you're always going to get pushed towards the barriers and thats exactly what happened here. Also, Massa managed to completly cock his breaking up and would have probably skipped the chicane in any case..

You're missing my point.

There were loud calls for the stewards to punish Schumacher in Canada. Indeed it would have been easy for them to do so, but instead they investigated the incidents and reached the same conclusions as you.

Therefore, the idea of a witch-hunt doesn't stack up.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

You're missing my point.

There were loud calls for the stewards to punish Schumacher in Canada. Indeed it would have been easy for them to do so, but instead they investigated the incidents and reached the same conclusions as you.

Therefore, the idea of a witch-hunt doesn't stack up.

I think it does, as there have been loud calls against many of the incidents this year and none of them have been punished. All of a sudden this one happens and everyone thinks 'Holy ****, we got to do something about this', whereas there are plenty of other incidents of a similar potentially dangerous nature that they could have taken the same view about.
Also, add in the Monaco incident and some of the character assassinations we've seen on this site as well as some comments by the BBC team, just because Schumacher isn't winning in the 4th best car on the grid and after 3 years out then it does add up pretty badly in my view.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by beau1

I think it does, as there have been loud calls against many of the incidents this year and none of them have been punished. All of a sudden this one happens and everyone thinks 'Holy ****, we got to do something about this', whereas there are plenty of other incidents of a similar potentially dangerous nature that they could have taken the same view about.

I don't think there have been any similar incidents this year.

Originally Posted by beau1

Also, add in the Monaco incident and some of the character assassinations we've seen on this site as well as some comments by the BBC team, just because Schumacher isn't winning in the 4th best car on the grid and after 3 years out then it does add up pretty badly in my view.

It isn't that he's not winning. It's that he's being so easily beaten by his team-mate.