porsche 918 vs 997

[lms]

Hello all,

I was wondering: with this new 918 in development, when will it replace the 997 (in racing series)? I mean the 997 is quite an old car, its racing in lms since 2007, although it received several upgrades in the past, but nothing extraordinary.
Can racing versions of the 918 replace the current 997 porsches in LMS, ALMS, FIA GT3EC... ?
I heard no news about porsche developing different versions of the car for racing in different series.

[Victor_RO]

Short answer: no. The 918 will be produced in very small numbers so it isn't eligible for homologation. Plus a racing version of it would be a lot more expensive than the 997 RSR, therefore cost-prohibitive.

[broadrun96]

The 2012 911(991) will replace the 997 but I haven't seen anything about when the GT2/3 models would be released. Assume since no comments or hints yet it would be tested in 2012 with its release to teams for the 2013 seasons?
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...os-future_cars some good info they have gathered on the new 911 model

[JAG]

If the 991 doesn't cut, and there's no reason to suggest it won't, the obvious replacement would be the Cayman.

For that to happen Porsche would have to realign their road car line-up, moving the 911 into a Grand Touring role, and producing higher spec Caymans.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Short answer: no. The 918 will be produced in very small numbers so it isn't eligible for homologation. Plus a racing version of it would be a lot more expensive than the 997 RSR, therefore cost-prohibitive.

I agree partially with you.
ACO homologation require construction of 1 car per week for large manufacturers, and as Porsche plan to build +/-1000 cars, I don't think that this is the sticking point.
We are in complete agreement concerning the cost, but more due to the hybrid technology currently in the 918RSR.
Anyway - there are strong rumors that Porsche will bring out a 458 competitor in about two -three years time. This will be a new mid-engined car that will be marketed between the 991 and the 918. Price is rumored to be between 300K and 400K Euro.
GT3 991 is only forecasted for late 2013/ begining of 2014 so I'm not sure we will see a track oriented 991 before then.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Anyway - there are strong rumors that Porsche will bring out a 458 competitor in about two -three years time. This will be a new mid-engined car that will be marketed between the 991 and the 918. Price is rumored to be between 300K and 400K Euro.

In 2-3 years 458 wont be produced anymore, its replacement is due in 2013-14 the 458M (probably similar upgrade that 575 was to 550)

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

In 2-3 years 458 wont be produced anymore, its replacement is due in 2013-14 the 458M (probably similar upgrade that 575 was to 550)

.......Then it will be a 458M competitor.

[arakis]

mid-engined V8 ferraris were aways 911 turbo competitors, while their more striped versions were competitiors to the gt3 and gt3 RS.
360 Modena 996 turbo/S
360 CS 996 GT3/RS
F430 997 Turbo/S
F430 Scud 997 GT3/RS

it seems logical that the real competior to the 458 is 997.2 Turbo/s and to its more extream version 997.2 gt3 RS 4.0.

while the 458M will be 991 Turbo.....

so I gues the porsche positioned above 911 and below 918 doesent really have ferrari competiton. maybe 599 replacement..

[Francesco]

991 the "next gen" 911 is a lot different from all other porsches, it has a longer wheel base, it wasn't a decision took on the design board but a decision that had to be made by US emission rules, it's quite a strange business...

i don't think that this will be a good base as all the other 911 have been for all these years for a racing version, but Porsche always comes up with a surprise, GT3 models should be up in the market in 2012/2013, so in the best option porsche teams should go all along trough a very difficult 2012 year.

this can be confirmed also by the fact that the new 911 GT3 Cup car will launched in 2013...

i think that's time is good enough to launch a Cayman RSR, but with BoP and all the new bull**** that's coming along in GT racing (look at Spa 24h "65' rule") the new 991 platform could still be competitive in the next years... 918 RSR was a good marketing experiment but i find it difficult to happen as an ACO "GTE" racing car, maybe a FIA GT1 "Special"?

[Spyderman]

I actually think that the 918 RSR "project" is dead. I hope I'm wrong, but....

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

mid-engined V8 ferraris were aways 911 turbo competitors, while their more striped versions were competitiors to the gt3 and gt3 RS.
360 Modena 996 turbo/S
360 CS 996 GT3/RS
F430 997 Turbo/S
F430 Scud 997 GT3/RS

it seems logical that the real competior to the 458 is 997.2 Turbo/s and to its more extream version 997.2 gt3 RS 4.0.

while the 458M will be 991 Turbo.....

so I gues the porsche positioned above 911 and below 918 doesent really have ferrari competiton. maybe 599 replacement..

Arakis - The MSRP for a Ferrari 458 is $225,325 (USA).
The MSRP for a Turbo S is $160,700 (USA).
Not exactly market competitors are they?

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I actually think that the 918 RSR "project" is dead. I hope I'm wrong, but....

Can you elaborate on this?
I remember reading the 918 was only going to be used until 2013, probably as an unclassified entry like the 911 Hybrid wherever it might run and I suppose as a testbed of sorts for some of the tech going into the LMP1 car?

[Spyderman]

That's what I thought too, but everything has gotten terribly silent involving this project. Porsche seem happy to show this car (which they are doing a lot of) in various Porsche events, but the "idea" that is being left amongst those that attend these meetings, is that the 918 RSR is more of a "concept car" rather than a project that will see some track time within the near future.
Please note: This is the "idea" that many who attend these meetings are left with. This does not mean that it is the truth.
Anyway - Lets see what 2012 brings.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Arakis - The MSRP for a Ferrari 458 is $225,325 (USA).
The MSRP for a Turbo S is $160,700 (USA).
Not exactly market competitors are they?

there are no market competitors to any Ferrari! as always all ferraris are sold out before they are built, years in advance, so there is no competition. Ferrari sells 6000 cars yearly porsche 100 000+. so comparing cars on price is rediculus, I was refering to performance...

[Francesco]

Originally Posted by arakis

there are no market competitors to any Ferrari! as always all ferraris are sold out before they are built, years in advance, so there is no competition. Ferrari sells 6000 cars yearly porsche 100 000+. so comparing cars on price is rediculus, I was refering to performance...

but the only thing where Ferrari really becomes incomparable is... reliability

[porman]

Originally Posted by Francesco

but the only thing where Ferrari really becomes incomparable is... reliability

Blasphemy!

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

there are no market competitors to any Ferrari! as always all ferraris are sold out before they are built, years in advance, so there is no competition. Ferrari sells 6000 cars yearly porsche 100 000+. so comparing cars on price is rediculus, I was refering to performance...

Comparing cars on price is only rediculous to those that cant afford them.
What Porschephiles are talking about when they say a F458 "competitor" is in terms of price, performance, and type (i.e mid-engined).

Oh! and BTW - Porsche unit sales will maybe reach 100K this year , but we are talking about total unit sales 5 model ranges.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Comparing cars on price is only rediculous to those that cant afford them.
What Porschephiles are talking about when they say a F458 "competitor" is in terms of price, performance, and type (i.e mid-engined).

Oh! and BTW - Porsche unit sales will maybe reach 100K this year , but we are talking about total unit sales 5 model ranges.

no comparing a porsche and a ferrari on price is only for those that can aford porsches and not Ferraris. In any day and age, a ferrari will be more expensive then a porsche thats why its pointless to compare them, if you are comparing the price performance, Nissan and Corvette beat both porsche and Ferrari by miles

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

no comparing a porsche and a ferrari on price is only for those that can aford porsches and not Ferraris. In any day and age, a ferrari will be more expensive then a porsche thats why its pointless to compare them, if you are comparing the price performance, Nissan and Corvette beat both porsche and Ferrari by miles

Have you seen the price of a 918? Do you know how many 458 you can buy for just one 918?
That is why Porsche are interested in the F458 " price territory". They have a product that is over the F price and they have many products under. Now they want one that is comparable.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by arakis

there are no market competitors to any Ferrari! as always all ferraris are sold out before they are built, years in advance, so there is no competition. Ferrari sells 6000 cars yearly porsche 100 000+. so comparing cars on price is rediculus, I was refering to performance...

I am sure that the Ferrari marketing machine prefers to looks at it that way. I also don't doubt your comments about cars sold in advance as the exclusivity is a way to ensure that Ferrari infers a specific chacet.

But if you step away from this as a fan or either Porsche or Ferrari and from a purely business perspective, if there is a market for cars at the same price range of a 458 then why not play in that market? Why should anyone assume that Ferrari will always own the majority of that pie?

If you then step away from the road car sales pitches and look at racing, then I would agree that a car that is potentially targeted at the 458 (or whatever replaces it in the future) might also make a good start for a competitor on the track.

Richard

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am sure that the Ferrari marketing machine prefers to looks at it that way. I also don't doubt your comments about cars sold in advance as the exclusivity is a way to ensure that Ferrari infers a specific chacet.

But if you step away from this as a fan or either Porsche or Ferrari and from a purely business perspective, if there is a market for cars at the same price range of a 458 then why not play in that market? Why should anyone assume that Ferrari will always own the majority of that pie?

If you then step away from the road car sales pitches and look at racing, then I would agree that a car that is potentially targeted at the 458 (or whatever replaces it in the future) might also make a good start for a competitor on the track.

Richard

I didnt say ferrari will own majority of the market, just that from Ferraris perspective they have no competitor, because they sell all the cars they build. so they will aways sell 3000 or whater the number of 458 they sell per year, If porsche enters the same price range with a better performing car, witch is a sound expectation it will only expand that market, not take any sales from Ferrari, maybe it will shorten the waiting lists from Ferraris.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by arakis

I didnt say ferrari will own majority of the market, just that from Ferraris perspective they have no competitor, because they sell all the cars they build. so they will aways sell 3000 or whater the number of 458 they sell per year, If porsche enters the same price range with a better performing car, witch is a sound expectation it will only expand that market, not take any sales from Ferrari, maybe it will shorten the waiting lists from Ferraris.

Point taken. My point is that at some point someone will have the opportunity to buy either (i.e. they are high enough up on the Ferrari list) and might then still choose the Porsche. That is where the competition is IMHO. Just because you can sell out your complete production run doesn't mean you are number one.

Of course, this is all speculation about a car that Porsche has yet to formally announce and even then, they still have to build a better and more desirable car.

Richard

[lms]

just heard this news about the new porsche 961... maybe that will be their weapon of choce against the ferrari 458/458M.

[hondafan37]

First images of the future Porsche 961. The front look pretty similar to 918. The 961 seems to be longer than the 918.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/au..._revealed.html

I remember reading that the Porsche 911 GT2/GTE (Aco Rules) used a mid-engined. The same I remember reading for the BMW M3 GT2/GTE used a front mid-engined. Is this true? Do the ACO Rules allow this modifications?

[MitchZ06]

Why not power the 961 with a twin turbo variant of the flat 6? Saves some weight, makes it able to have the engine lower for better weight distribution and would make for a very good race car should a 961 GT RSR rock up.