Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

I like the #2 and #3 better than the #1--separation between Audi Sport NA and Audi Sport Joest (even though we all know that they're the same team!)?

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Looks like the short phase of experimenting over at Audi is over, they´re back to their usual boring liveries.

I didn't like last years "somebody tripped over buckets of paint" look but at least it was something new. They could have at least tried to make the car look a little prettier with a nice livery... this one just looks random.

I have to disagree with you on the R15+ livery. I personally thought it was very nicely done and went well with the lines of the car. I can't think of any other way to do the r15+ with the fangs at the front of the nose.

These R18's liveries are a bit weak IMO but the car itself sure doesn't seem to be!

[Mockenrue]

Stunning.



Full image gallery here: http://www.oneighturbo.com/audi/audi...n-full-livery/

[MitchZ06]

Gotta say that does actually look pretty badass.

[chernaudi]

It seems according to that story that the R18s were doing a pre-LM test 30 hour test. In the Fourtitude video, Dr. Ullrich said that Audi would likely do a 30 hour test there in May. That's a given to gather info about the car, but this is a little early to be sometime in May.

However, he didn't say anything about before May as far as endurance testing.

And the E-I piece says that the V6 out of the R15 is about 25% lighter than the R15's V10.

[jellydonut]

Thoroughly dislike the mostly grey livery, but the one that retains most of the black, I like.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

The new Audi R18 livery:
http://www.translate.google.dk/trans...2F&sl=fr&tl=en

The press release in English: http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/exp..._on_ultra.html

The motivation for the black-gray livery is to highlight the use of carbon fibre. The whole focus of the car is a low weight, so perhaps they are saving weight by using less paint.

For what it is worth, the official power number for the R18 engine is "over 540 hp (397 kW)". Baretzky talks about "an unusual engine concept", which sort of confirms the turbo inside V theory.

The gearbox "has a high amount of carbon-fiber composite material". I guess that means a carbon fiber instead of aluminium casting. The gear box is operated electrically, instead of pneumatically.

Another important feature: "Optimized airflow through the cockpit should make air-conditioning redundant." There were rumors that Peugeot does not use air conditioning either.

[sssssssss]

so, any data yet from paul ricard, if they tested there? i'd be very interesting to compare some numbers with those of the 908.

[chernaudi]

And it seems that the R18's gearbox casing has numerous carbon fiber components on it and that the gear change system is no longer electro-pnumatic, but is purely electronic.

I wonder how much weight that's saved, along with the alleged compound turbocharger system, which wasn't mentioned.

I think anyone near the R18 this weekend should have their cameras ready...

Certianly, the R18 is undoubtedly lighter than the 908, which has a V8, electro-hydraulic gear change, and the main reasoning behind the "evolution 2" bodywork was to shed 40kgs or almost 90 lbs of weight. Even though it has to weigh 900kgs, that means more freedom to move around ballast and to allow for their rumored KERS system next year.

If Audi are able to get close to the 908's strightline speeds, they'll be with a shot to win LM or anywhere else on performance, rather than strategy or Peugeot mistakes/issues alone.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The press release in English: http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/exp..._on_ultra.html

The motivation for the black-gray livery is to highlight the use of carbon fibre. The whole focus of the car is a light weight, so perhaps they are saving weight by using less paint.

For what it is worth, the official power number for the R18 engine is 540 hp (397 kW). Baretzky talks about "an unusual engine concept", which sort of confirms the turbo inside V solution.

The gearbox "has a high amount of carbon-fiber composite material". I guess that means a carbon fiber instead of aluminium casting.

540bhp quoted, probably more like 570-580 in reality.

Also, carbon fiber gearbox? I sense a potential weak point right there.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

so, any data yet from paul ricard, if they tested there? i'd be very interesting to compare some numbers with those of the 908.

I think Audi is smart enough to keep their test private.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I wonder how much weight that's saved, along with the alleged compound turbocharger system, which wasn't mentioned.

I still bet on one big turbo. I don't see the added value of turbo compounding if you have VTG.

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Also, carbon fiber gearbox? I sense a potential weak point right there.

As long as they don't use carbon fibre for the gears, I see no problem. In F1 gearbox castings are made from aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre, depending on the preferrence of the team.

[Gingers4Justice]

It's more than just figures with the new Audi, in those videos at Sebring it seemed to move around the circuit effortlessly, so it's working in practice as well as in theory.

I can see the Audi having a massive advantage in being nimble, which should definitely play in to Audi's hands at the smaller ILMC races and probably ace sector times in the last sector at La Sarthe.

One weak-point could be driver visibility; the R18 seems to have a narrow windscreen, maybe even more narrow than the 908. Considering the Audi drivers have little experience of lapping GT cars in a closed, modern LMP it could be a cause for concern, especially having tested for hours on clear tracks.

It took the Pug drivers the whole of 2007 to learn how to not drive in to GT2 cars.

[chernaudi]

All the Audi guys aside from McNish have experience in GT cars, and Allan has driven the Toyota GT-One at LM, and he didn't have any problems with it. And we can't forget that Andre and Benoit run in the Super GT GT500 class, which are fairly closer to front engine LMP1 cars now--I've read that they run carbon monocoques and I know that they run pushrod double wishbone suspensions on them, and the cockpits of those cars aren't much different from the R18 in layout and use of the HANS.

And of course, Tom and Dindo raced the '03 Bentley, which seems to have heavily inspired the R18's cockpit design.

I'd expect the Audi guys to adapt quicker than the Pug guys did, and you can bet that Audi studied the 908 as well to get what they wanted.

[GT6]

I think it looks good, a big improvement on the earlier pictures and will see what it looks like in the flesh in 2 weeks at spa

[Down F0rce]

Looks great!

[The Badger]

I think they look septic !!!

[CTD]

With all this weight saving, the risk of mechanical failure is increasing. Especially under race condition where the car will be pushed a bit further than under testing.
With only one race (Spa) before Le Mans, could Audi run another potentially very risky design?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by CTD

With all this weight saving, the risk of mechanical failure is increasing. Especially under race condition where the car will be pushed a bit further than under testing.
With only one race (Spa) before Le Mans, could Audi run another potentially very risky design?

Yep, they make the same mistake as in 2009, field a poorly raced car. No testing in the world can make up for actually racing a car and looking back at their poor result, they would have been much better off putting the R18 through Sebring to iron out the kinks..

[chernaudi]

Well, the early Peugeot 908s were heavy cars that were made light, and that didn't help their reliablity, especially the first couple of years.

For an aircraft anaology, the DeHavilland Mosquito, Lavochkin La-5 and La-7, and the Yakovlev Yak-9 and Yak-3 were lightweight aircraft of their type, in small part because they were basically varnished caskets. In other words, they were made largely out of wood, a non-strategic material and usually fairly light weight.

The Yak-3 was one of the smallest fighter aircraft or World War II, and it had it's defects--it's Hispano Suiza 12Y derived Klimov M-105 engine was being pushed to it's limits as far as a favorable power/reliablity ratio (due to the Russians not having western aluminum alloys available to make improved engine internals, and indifferent wartime production standards) and wing skins tended to break off if the plane had a few too many 500mph+ dives (due to indifferent wartime production standards), but it was as manuverable under combat situaltions as the Mitsubishi A6M Zero (an other lightweight fighter), but was better protected and armed, more durable, easier to repair, and not to mention that it outperformed the Zero in every other field.

As Gwyllion pointed out, F1 teams have used a lot of the this technology for years, and as the 908 proved, it's easier to beef things up than to pare off weight. I believe that most of the 908's problems though out it's life was because of the team trying to pare off weight off the rather overweight 908s, and reliablity only really improved when the extra 30kgs of ballast was added to the diesel LMP1s--the Pugs had trouble getting much below 925kgs at Sebring '09, and they had reliablity issues there.

The R18 survived 2 30 hour tests at Sebring--probably the most demanding track on cars that sportscars race at--and the photos that Audi released were from a Paul Ricard test that was probably a 30 hour test, and aside from Monza, Paul Ricard because of that 3/4 of a mile Mistral Straight, is about as close to LM as you're gonna get nowadays with the old Hockenheim GP track being largely gone (a favorite Joest test ground because of it's resemblance to LM).

If the R18 can survived the worst that these two test circuits can throw at it, it'll probably survive LM, but that's not gurentee. Peugeot did 12 30 hour tests last year, but none of their cars finished because of unproven parts being added at the last minute.

As I said, Audi are playing it smart by designing a lightweight car first, as it's easier to add weight than to pare it off.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

With all this weight saving, the risk of mechanical failure is increasing. Especially under race condition where the car will be pushed a bit further than under testing.
With only one race (Spa) before Le Mans, could Audi run another potentially very risky design?

I don't expect any issues.

You have to see where they are saving weight:

• monocoque: the single piece is lighter, but also stronger, than 2 pieces glued together -> very positive
• bodywork: 40 kg weight saving between original and evolution 2 -> maybe only an issue in case of contact with other cars
• engine: 25% lighter than V10 -> very logical consequence of displacement reduction
• gearbox: similar to proven solution of Dome S102, which had a carbon fibre casing (see here), Xtrac internals and Zytek EGS (Electrically-assisted Gearshift System)
• LED headlights -> proven technology in road cars
• no air-conditioning -> one system less that can fail

[gwyllion]

More pictures of the livery: http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...iccard%20Test#

[Flat12-Aircool]

If it wasn't for that stupid fin on the back this car would look epic. The ACO really do have to have a rethink about the fin regulations, it's just way too big.

I'm not saying some sort of fin isn't needed, but lets have something that actually looks like a Shark fin, rather than as if a huge Plastic door has been glued to the back of the car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

If it wasn't for that stupid fin on the back this car would look epic. The ACO really do have to have a rethink about the fin regulations, it's just way too big.

The FIA came up with the fin

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If Audi are able to get close to the 908's strightline speeds, they'll be with a shot to win LM or anywhere else on performance, rather than strategy or Peugeot mistakes/issues alone.

With all this emphasis of weight saving (for good balance and agility) and slick aerodynamics (for low drag), it seems that Audi expects to be down on power compared to the new 908. Peugeot on the other hand again put most of their effort in their engine by selecting the more logical V8 configuration.

I expect that the design choice of Audi will give then an advantage in the other ILMC races. However in Le Mans Peugeot might have the upper hand, because of the long straights.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

One weak-point could be driver visibility; the R18 seems to have a narrow windscreen, maybe even more narrow than the 908. Considering the Audi drivers have little experience of lapping GT cars in a closed, modern LMP it could be a cause for concern, especially having tested for hours on clear tracks.

It took the Pug drivers the whole of 2007 to learn how to not drive in to GT2 cars.

A number of drivers complained about poor visibility.

"Visibility straight is good and the seating position is good. Visibility to the right is not easy, but everyone will be like this. It is hard to see the apex in right hand corners."
– Tom Kristensen

"It is easier to drive but visibility is a challenge. We won Le Mans in 2003 with the Bentley (Speed 8). The cockpit was different in that car. The A-pillars were different so there was less of a blind spot. There is a bigger blind spot in the latest design requirements and everyone (with a closed top car) will be subject to that.”
- Dindo Capello[/quote]source: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6754.shtml