Dry sump installation

[zefarelly]

I'd like to know whats going on inside a majority of wet sump Ford pans . . . you don't weld a pipe off the side of the oil pump and stick it straight into the sump base for no reason . . . . not if its a std wet sump anyway.

[GORDON STREETER]

Yes we digress That would be a good idea on my Smart Car as it has aircon and will go at least 10mph with it switched off !

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I'd like to know whats going on inside a majority of wet sump Ford pans . . . you don't weld a pipe off the side of the oil pump and stick it straight into the sump base for no reason . . . . not if its a std wet sump anyway.

Yes we was talking about this a while back, and I will dig out that old CCC Vizard article and have another look.
Do you think we are confusing a few people Zef ?

[zefarelly]

to some . . .

to us . . .

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Yes we digress That would be a good idea on my Smart Car as it has aircon and will go at least 10mph with it switched off !

Is the word "faster" missing from that sentence!

[Chris Y]

Given that it's a Smart... Possibly not

[tzei]

Pre-oiling is one thing but i was rather thinking along the lines that one could perhaps save something by plumping some oli to a system (when primary oil delivery have issues).

[Al Weyman]

It should'nt do with dry sumping thats what its all about, you generally have a scavenge pump twice the capacity of the engine lubricating side of the pump ensuring the sump is always, well dry, and the the tank has a good head of oil. Accusump would over complicate it IMHO.

BTW I am surprised no one has come up for a race series for Smarts, may be fun watching them overturn, at least a bit quicker than the snails.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

BTW I am surprised no one has come up for a race series for Smarts, may be fun watching them overturn, at least a bit quicker than the snails.

I thought they fixed the falling over by making them understeer by fitting smaller front wheel/tyres?

I know they can do around 80MPH because I often follow them.

However I will say they are amongst the best drivers for moving over for motorbikes. Which is odd because they are so narrow that, generally, they aren't in the way! Still, thanks all the same, makes my life easier and safer.

I wonder if they are dry sumped?

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

It should'nt do with dry sumping thats what its all about, you generally have a scavenge pump twice the capacity of the engine lubricating side of the pump ensuring the sump is always, well dry, and the the tank has a good head of oil. Accusump would over complicate it IMHO.

Generally you would have at least two scavenge pump, one for the front and one for the back. If you start running out of oil in the tank then you either a bigger tank or more scavenge pumps. Other places to scavenge from would include the front and back of the cylinder head, especially if you have a Toyota 4age or Vauxhall XE with their amazing ability to not bother returning oil to the sump.

And the more scavenge stages you have the more vaccuum you have. You can even end up with a totally sealed engine (ie no breather)!

[zefarelly]

at the LeMAns classic last year a few cars I was helping with had electric priming pumps, obviously not necessarily a period or an original factory fit item for an early 30's motor but a wise precaution on such rare and valuable motors

[GORDON STREETER]

Is the word "faster" missing from that sentence! Well spotted Denis, it does do a bit more than 10 mph as loads of people have found out. As for the smaller front wheels it also has a shorter front track ,I found this out on Tuesday when I tried to get through some road works at about 60mph and clouted a rear wheel and bent the axle tube
Getting back to dry sumps if you leave the car for a couple of weeks the tank can empty into the sump especially on the Ford Kent. This can cause a problem on start up, as not only have you got no pressure but the crank is submerged in oil as the sump hasn't got a lot of capacity.
I remember a guy that I raced with back in the 90s that thought he had the answer and fitted a tap on the feed line, that was OK as long as he remembered to turn it on, and yes he did forget and destroyed his steel crank because he didn't look at his gauge and didn't have an oil light !

[zefarelly]

ah . . acustomer of mine has this problem with a BDA in a MK1 escort . . . . leave the car long enough and you come back to a large puddle . . . . it leaks past the rear oil seal . . . he needed a rope one obviously

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

it leaks past the rear oil seal . . . he needed a rope one obviously

Yeh right o , In fact they leak past both types after the engine has done a few miles, but not while they are running.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by tzei

Where does accusump fit in/ gets connected in dry sump system? Between pump and filter would be my guess but...

If you have a dry sump system an Accusump is not necessary.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Yeh right o , In fact they leak past both types after the engine has done a few miles, but not while they are running.

That probably because the negative crankcase pressure created by the scavenge pump.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

ah . . acustomer of mine has this problem with a BDA in a MK1 escort . . . . leave the car long enough and you come back to a large puddle . . . . it leaks past the rear oil seal . . . he needed a rope one obviously

Funnily enough the Toyota 4age (sort of a BDA copy) has a similar issue. My Dad is the only one who can fit a rear main seal to it that doesn't leak. Other people that have tried include ex F1 engine builders, ex-touring car engine builders etc. No idea why this is, my Dad is just an ordinary mechanic who replaces oil/brake pads etc for a living.

Weird.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

BTW I am surprised no one has come up for a race series for Smarts, may be fun watching them overturn, at least a bit quicker than the snails.

They race them in France, certainly at least once a year as part of the Spa 24hr 2CV race :



More pics at http://www.2cvtv.com/Events/2008/spa/cars/index.htm including some of the bonkers modified 2CVs they race there.

[Al Weyman]

Hey this may be the way to get the boredom out of watching some motor racing, with these things there is not a track in the world they could'nt go into a corner 5 abreast may be more or less on par with Moto GP if they put some serious power in them (will a SBC V8 fit?).

[GORDON STREETER]

There is a UK firm that list a complete subframe/bike engine swap that you slot in.
Others have put different types of bike engines in them like this one, thay must be a bit of a handfull on the twisty bits but OK in a straight line !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4HdsDZX6c&feature=fvsr

[greenamex2]

I don't think it actually went in a straight line did it!

Love the music, very "Visage".

[zefarelly]

like Gordons beard? . . . . .'fade to grey'

[GORDON STREETER]

How the hell this got from dry sump installation to my beard
It maybe time to knock this "thread on the head" !

[tzei]

Thread ressurected (sorry)

My q is about dry sump breather line non-return valve (or in line check valve - if you prefer).

I've looked thru some schematics about the whole ds layout but have't found any pics/text regarding that explains its purpose in a system (it might be due my poor English skills too )

Care anyone please explain and educate me?

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by tzei

Thread ressurected (sorry)

My q is about dry sump breather line non-return valve (or in line check valve - if you prefer).

I've looked thru some schematics about the whole ds layout but have't found any pics/text regarding that explains its purpose in a system (it might be due my poor English skills too )

Care anyone please explain and educate me?

Spooky, Just been fitting one myself!

You should have one (or more in my case, long story) breather going from the engine to the dry sump tank (usually to the top). It should be orientated such that air can blow out but not get sucked back in.

The purpose of this is to allow any positive crankcase pressure to vent to the dry sump tank rather than blowing the seals out.

However, it is costing the opportunity of the dry sump scavenge pump stages to reduce the crankcase pressure in the engine, and thus getting some extra 'free' power by reducing windage losses and piston blowby.

The purpose of the breather valve is to allow air out when the crankcase pressure is positive but not allow it back in when the scavenge stages are trying to reduce pressure.

At least thats the theory.

On my engine I have two breathers to the dry sump tank. One will have the check valve in and the other will have a restictor in to limit the amount of negative pressure because I don't trust the seals.

Hope that helps.