LeMans vs F1

[Garrett]

If F1 cars were to have a couple of laps around Le Mans, what lap times do you think they would post??? Would they reach higher top speeds??? Would F1 cars be able to reach top speeds as fast as the old Group C racers if they could run down the "old" Mulsanne?

[gttouring]

wow this will start fights, or Not again replies.
but the down force and drag figure on an F1 car would really hamper top speed, those open spinning wheels and all, and what tyres? lots to be considered here. would you let them run on the michellins that audi used to win, or and LMP or GT2 car set, or use straight up tyres from Monza race set up? if set up for the track i bet they will post speeds a bit lower at the end of the straight, the grip in the slow section and the acceleration to top speed would help. the old groupC were and are nigh untouchable i think as the body work regs and such. not that there is a lack of power now, but aero has such an effect. lap times is hard to say, compare the LMP1 times at Monza to F1: 1.37.938 by Zytek last year LMES to R. Barrichello - 1'20''089 (2004, Ferrari). It seems the F1 machines would Pip the LMP's around leMans by a huge margin.

Nurburgring
Pole 2005
N. Heidfeld - 1'30''081
(Williams)

Creation AutoSportif
1.44.965 Nurburgring

draw your own conclusion. but with the 2.4 L v8's i still expect the times to be within a few seconds of the last poles and race times, leaving the F1 machine a huge margin still.

[Smurfer]

what is the lap record around the Nurburgring by a LeMans car?

[ss_collins]

LM cars use a restrictor, so will never be quicker than F1 - though take the restrictor off and in thoery at least the LMP1 should be much quicker.

Read my column on using F1 spec 2.4 V8's in LMP2

[JAG]

There's also a 5-6 second difference betrween F1 pole and the backmarkers, which are still mighty impressive cars.

The 2.4 V8's have pegged the F1 cars a little, but the big change will come in 2008 when new aero/chassis regs will cut downforece by 50%+.

This should slow F1 cars by 5+ seconds a lap.

[Erki]

How much faster has Audi R8 gotten throughout those 6 years?

[JAG]

It's become slower with the reg changes, but the R10 and new reg LMP1's are as quick, if not quicket than the fastest ever R8.

Here are some comparative times from Istanbul:-

Istanbul

F1 - 1.26.879 (Pole)
F1 - 1.30 (Average time of last four qualifyers)
GP2 - 1.38.42
LMP1 - 1.39.359
LMP2 - 1.40.860
DTM - 1.47.10
FIA GT1 - 1.49.61
MOto GP - 1.52.334
FIA GT2 - 1.55.45
WTCC - 2.04.53

[Erki]

Well we also have to reckon with LMPs being built as endurance racers and therefore their engines aren't pushed to the limit.

[MorganFan]

Not to mention that the Le Mans 24, distance wise, is, IIRC, longer than the entire F1 season. With the new F1 V8s struggling to finish a race weekend rather too many times this season, I think they'd need to be rev limited quite a lot to be in with a shout of finishing the 24 hours.

But, if you are just talking about 1 or 2 laps, I seem to recall an article in a race mag a couple of years ago that reckoned that the Peugot 905B was the only prototype that could ever have lived with the contempory F1 cars - using some interpolation I think they looked at a group C and GP race at Estoril to decide that the 905 would have qualified easily for the GP.

[Fogelhund]

Starting to stray a bit off topic I know.. but hey..

I had a good conversation with Brian Redman a couple of months ago. He is quite outspoken on his opinions of various current sportscar racing formats, but I'll stick to those that have some relation to the original topic.

Back in his day, the Sportscars were routinely faster than the F1 cars. It is his opinion, that this speed created a certain mystique that was attractive to both drivers and fans alike. The drivers absolutely wanted to race in the "fastest" machines on the planet, and fans wanted to see this spectacle. It is his opinion that todays sportscars are too slow, and allowing them to approach F1 type speeds would greatly broaden their appeal to modern fans.

[jhansen]

That's probably true. Speed can be a big draw for the fans.

I posted this before somewhere, but imagine a Zytek 04S running at 675kgs and minus the restrictor. That would be fast!

[BSchneiderFan]

Some of the Porsche 917s would have crucified then-contemporary F1 cars.

[Dani Filth]

at LeMans .. probably not Monaco

Monza 1971 .. 1000km pole . 1:27,400
Monza GP . fastest race lap ..
Fastest Lap: Henri Pescarolo 1'23.800

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Starting to stray a bit off topic I know.. but hey..

I had a good conversation with Brian Redman a couple of months ago. He is quite outspoken on his opinions of various current sportscar racing formats, but I'll stick to those that have some relation to the original topic.

Back in his day, the Sportscars were routinely faster than the F1 cars. It is his opinion, that this speed created a certain mystique that was attractive to both drivers and fans alike. The drivers absolutely wanted to race in the "fastest" machines on the planet, and fans wanted to see this spectacle. It is his opinion that todays sportscars are too slow, and allowing them to approach F1 type speeds would greatly broaden their appeal to modern fans.

If you look at comparative times you will see contempary sportscars are every bit as quick as the last generation Group C /GTP cars, over a single lap, and much quicker over a race distance.

Only the 905B and 1993 Toyota TS010 are a step above.

Current F1 cars were let off the leash in recent years so there speed advantage is far greater than it should be. From 2008 onwards they will be pegged back significantly, more in line with Champ Car speeds.

It's ironic that current F1 cars are the quickest ever, yet desperatly dull to watch, just too much downforce.

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you look at comparative times you will see contempary sportscars are every bit as quick as the last generation Group C /GTP cars, over a single lap, and much quicker over a race distance.

Only the 905B and 1993 Toyota TS010 are a step above..

But the modern prototype cars are sterile in comparison. You can tell they're strangled in comparison with the Group C cars, beit 905, TS010, Sauber-Merc.

Yes they are quicker comparatively. What gets me each year is the braking distances of the prototypes, and how nimble they are - Ford Chicane being a good example - are both massively better than the Group C cars.

But for many the brut power of Group C cars was the thing (as well as the aesthetics, obviously) that they are remembered for - fuel induced economy runs or not.

[dj choc ice]

to be honest i love the top class LMP's as they are, sportscar racing in my eyes is very interesting and has a lot of variety while formula 1 has gone a bit stale over the past few years but i think at lemans in a straight line the F1 car would struggle to beat a LMP1 car on terms of top speed,

if i was the ACO i would still allow the old LMP900 cars to race against the new hybrids but give the older cars a bigger restrictor with power going from 550bhp to around 600bhp at least and allow the LMP hybrids to have a restrictor putting power at around 650bhp but the dream LMP car would have the same weight as the LMP2 cars but they would have around 550bhp to 600bhp so that means the zytek would be the dream LMP for me and i would also have other LMP's which would weigh around 900kg with less downforce but less drag and around 650bhp to 700bhp which would make for some great battles at tracks like spa and monza so what would you all reckon to that formula?

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

to be honest i love the top class LMP's as they are, sportscar racing in my eyes is very interesting and has a lot of variety while formula 1 has gone a bit stale over the past few years but i think at lemans in a straight line the F1 car would struggle to beat a LMP1 car on terms of top speed,

at Monza the F1 cars top 220 mph, on straights shorter than the various bits of Mulsanne. So, no - F1 cars do not struggle to beat LMP1 cars.

[Kempi]

Two years ago, they even reached 370kph in Monza (~240mph), so I dunno where the impression comes from, LMPs would kill them in topspeed. I expect them to get around that speed again this year because they lowered aero resistance a bit in combination with the V8 engine and they are getting higher cornering speeds.

Okay, the old Sauber C9 might have a hand on them in a straight, but even that isn't for sure.

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Two years ago, they even reached 370kph in Monza (~240mph),

nearly, but not quite 230mph

[Garrett]

Even if the F1 machines could do a run around Le Mans, i think their speeds would be somewhat higher just because their allowed more horsepower. Yet, the quickest top speed ever recorded on the Mulsanne after the chicanes were put in was done by a Nissan R90CK at Le Mans 1990 that topped at 227mph (366kph).

If the current LMP's, the Audi R10 or Pecarolo or Dome, were allowed the same hp as F1 cars, 850hp or so, then there could be some LMPs out pacing the F1 cars in a straight line.

On the Le Mans Top Speed thread, it was mentioned that the R10's may be running 750hp??? I wonder if that is true??? It was also mentioned that the R10s may be able to set top speeds in the 340kph+ range??? I hope so!!

[JAG]

Reasess speeds in 2008 when F1 downforce will be cut by 50%, engine tech is freezed and most of the electronic crap will be banned.

They may actually be exciting to watch.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Garrett

On the Le Mans Top Speed thread, it was mentioned that the R10's may be running 750hp??? I wonder if that is true??? It was also mentioned that the R10s may be able to set top speeds in the 340kph+ range??? I hope so!!

Very skeptical of those claims, espcially based upon the R10's Sebring performance. Don't get me wrong it was quick, but about where one would expect a "650-ish" hp LMP1 designed to the current regulations (not a hybrid) though-not-quite-optimized but with 800+ lb-ft of torque. 750 hp would have the R10 arriving with 100+ more hp than any one else (much less 100 more than any LMP has had since the advent of the LMP regulations) and it would be hard to sand bag that away. The R10's Sebring lap times show a concervative race pace, and given the light of one car's failure, that race pace was designed to keep the cars together for the 12 hours (and was on the margin as it were).