Who made our circuits the way they are?

[Alan Raine]

An answer by John Turner in a thread in Historic Racing Today, regarding who designed the layout at Cadwell Park, got me thinking who is responsible for the design of the circuits we drive on, or view from today.

Basically John's answer was that Cadwell just evolved over time to what it is today which is possibly the case with most circuits. Obviously the terrain dictates a lot of where a circuit will go, but one or several people must have been responsible for creating such an interesting and exciting place to drive around. No better place on a warm summers day than tackling the Mountain and Hall Bends then steaming off into the fast bits, especially if the cars handling well.

Who's idea was Paddock Bend at Brands, Duffers Dip and the Chicane at Knockhill, Oulton Park in general, etc. We take these places for granted as they are there, but somebody must have been responsible for them being there in the first place.

More to the point if they were built again today would they ever get off the drawing board as they would be deemed to dangerous, and are we in danger of having to modify or lose some of them for safety reasons.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Take the circuit of Ty Croes on Anglesey (I know it is now called Anglesey Racing Circuit but it will always be Ty Croes to me!); this was built upon the access roads round the MoD camp. In fact when I first went there the old wooden Guard House at the main gate was still standing! The circuit has slowly evolved and with new plans in the pipeline to expand even further.

The same is true for many venues. Oulton Park was used as a WW2 displaced persons camp and back in the 50s when I started going you could still see the concrete bases of the huts dotted around and even on the inside of Lodge Corner there were still two nissan huts in use.

Many circuits in use in the late 40s, 50s and 60s were old airfield sites (Snetterton, Silverstone, Castle Combe, Croft, Goodwood, Kirkistown, Pembrey and Thruxton still being in use). The original 'design' of these was mainly down to what could be achieved with the runways and perimeter tracks.

The main problem is the lack of imagination used to make such venues safe for modern racing. The infamous chicanes that have sprouted up always seem a sledgehammer to crack the preverbial nut.

With the future of Rockingham, the last new design to be constructed, in the balance maybe the old airfields have plenty of life left in them.

[Vitesse]

To a certain extent, there's a Catch 22 in adapting old airfield circuits in that they are, by their very nature, flat and WW2 airfields were pretty much built to a standard plan. Some of the Australian airfield circuits show similar layouts to the early Silverstone. Good artificial road circuits have variations of height and take advantage of the terrain, but to do this with (say) Castle Combe or Snetterton, you'd have to do an awful lot of digging!

The original Brands Hatch (ancestor of the current Indy circuit) was a motorcycle grass track and Lydden Hill was (IIRC) built in an old quarry. Pre-war Donington was laid out on the estate roads and much of Crystal Palace was on existing roads in the park.

[ss_collins]

No crystal palace as most people know it was not built on existing roads in the park. The first course (not the original banked oval) was indeed made up of the existing roads - as were all courses at Crystal Palace until the 1930's when the 2 mile road course was built - this was a new design and only one section (New zealand hill) was original to the victorial roads. When the circuit reopened after the war the infield loop including new zealand hill was bypassed to make it into the super fast slipstreamer it ws until '72.

New zealand hill was revived for the sprints on the track between 1997 - 2000.

Wanna know more? buy the book.

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

No crystal palace as most people know it was not built on existing roads in the park. The first course (not the original banked oval) was indeed made up of the existing roads - as were all courses at Crystal Palace until the 1930's when the 2 mile road course was built - this was a new design and only one section (New zealand hill) was original to the victorial roads. When the circuit reopened after the war the infield loop including new zealand hill was bypassed to make it into the super fast slipstreamer it ws until '72.

Are you sure about that?
This park plan would suggest that North Tower Cresent right round the 30s track up to Pond Hairpin was all existing path. Likewise a short section on Maxim Rise where the track skirts round a fountain.

[ss_collins]

What appears to be north tower on there aligns with the wrong pathway - the 1st terrace rather than where the terrace straight should be so no north tower crescent was 75% new. The down hill section known as the glade follows a similar path to that map but not exactly. Then at the bottom of the hill it turns right round the middle lake and up New Zealand hill. But as you can see from the map the road course we know has very little to do with earlier layouts.

I'm not convinced by the maxim rise thoery I must say, but it would be nice if it were true. If you look at period pictures of the palace you see that that portion of the park changed a lot. With buildings constructed for a an event which escapes me but gave some parts of the track thier names - notably New Zealand

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

With buildings constructed for a an event which escapes me but gave some parts of the track thier names - notably New Zealand

The Great Exhibition 1851?

[pirenzo]

Festival of the Empire, 1911

[ss_collins]

thanks thats the one Pirenzo

note to self read page 15 of own book

[graeme]

Don't think Lydden was a quarry - Longridge was meant to be the only circuit in a quarry??

Cadwell started out as just the Mountain for 'bikes (and F3?), then part of the full circuit was added (Copse, Charlies then straight to Manisfield), then the full circuit.

Check out Motor Racing Circuits of England for the full stories - oh, it's advertised at the bottom of the page!

[Darren Galpin]

That's a good book, but it does miss one or two circuits out which were used for car racing in England.

[ss_collins]

And it is incorrect on some others (like crystal palace)

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Darren Galpin

That's a good book, but it does miss one or two circuits out which were used for car racing in England.

I think we may have been through this already - but which ones?

[Gerry Taylor]

In 1973 I held the short circuit lap record at Mallory Park. During that season the Warwickshire Car Club decided to alter the chicane WITHOUT Authorisation. The lap record was broken. I entered an objection to the RAC and they came out and inspected the chicane at the circuit. They found that the ARMCO had been removed and small red cones put there instead, therbye speeding up the approach to the chicane (Cones don't hurt...Armco does!) I had a letter from the RAC telling me that they decided on authorisation of circuit layout NOT anyone else! My lap record was re-instated. Gerry SWISH Taylor.

[Alan Raine]

Good for you! I remember your "Angle Box".

I helped out with a Formula Ford guy who won his first race on the short Mallory Circuit in the early 80's but it was very scary as the camber was all wrong coming back on to the normal track.

I don't think it has been used for a long time.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by graeme

Don't think Lydden was a quarry - Longridge was meant to be the only circuit in a quarry??

On the subject of quarries and circuit design; Quarry at Castle Combe, when the airfield perimeter track was built was intended to be a 90 degree turn from Avon Rise onto Farm Straight. However, due to delays in filling up the eponymous quarry, the track was built around it and then infilled at a latter date.

With regard to Steve Wilkinson's post regarding the design of old airfield tracks, my understanding was that Pembrey doesn't follow any if the old airfield's tracks and runways, although one forms the paddock. Am I wrong in thinking this?

[Alan Raine]

Croft was an old airfield circuit. The new version seems to take in much more than just the runways.

Where would we be without WW2. Thruxton, Silverstone, Snetterton, Croft (I'm sure there's more) would they have been something else instead of race tracks, if someone else got hold of them?

[Rob29]

Short chicane circuit at Mallory Park was created by John Webb of MCD in 1964 in response to objections from local residents to noise from more meetings on the full circuit.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

I helped out with a Formula Ford guy who won his first race on the short Mallory Circuit in the early 80's but it was very scary as the camber was all wrong coming back on to the normal track.

I don't think it has been used for a long time.

It's been used a few times, up until approximately 2000, both for Eurocars and the supporting package - including Formula Eurofirst and Star of the Midlands/Mallory FF1600. No chicane was used, and the races were absolutely blindingly fantastic slipstreamers. In actual fact I would quite like to see them again.

Don't forget, that circuit has been used in both directions, and anti-clockwise with two chicanes added (at Turn 1 and Turn 3 - Gerard's in) for the 1993(?) Truck Grand National and also one car race - the Citroen 2CVs which ran in support.

The long circuit has also been used with chicanes - the original bus-stop was used for the FIA Solar Electric Cup event about ten years ago, and of course a couple of years ago Edwina's was used on one occasion for a BARC meeting.

[Alan Raine]

I think Edwinas was put in to slow the bikes down for the Esses.

[Ian Sowman]

Yes, it was - but it was (and as far as I know still is) licenced for cars as well. Only used the once, however... it didn't really work.

[ianpearson]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Yes, it was - but it was (and as far as I know still is) licenced for cars as well. Only used the once, however... it didn't really work.

it was used in 2003 for BARC meeting

The not completly finished run off consisting of large stones also allowed my kerb hopping brother to get a stone jammed underneath his throttle stop in our classic ff2000 so when he tried to change gear going through the esses the throttle was still wide, the tacho needle did a couple of laps of the rev counter & the fly wheel exploded, sawing through the chassis & puncturing a tyre, resulting in a big spin into the gravel trap.

who said chicanes made it safer

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by ianpearson

it was used in 2003 for BARC meeting

The not completly finished run off consisting of large stones also allowed my kerb hopping brother to get a stone jammed underneath his throttle stop in our classic ff2000 so when he tried to change gear going through the esses the throttle was still wide, the tacho needle did a couple of laps of the rev counter & the fly wheel exploded, sawing through the chassis & puncturing a tyre, resulting in a big spin into the gravel trap.

who said chicanes made it safer

oooohh!

[ss_collins]

pic of broken bits?