[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Deleted]

https://www.autosport.com/imsa/news/...l--castroneves

"I don't think LMP1 is going to last for long. I hope LMP2 will become LMP1, it would be better for everyone. It's the situation like Champ Car and IRL.
What are we doing here? Why don't we just get one great series, the best from Europe, the best from America and let's make it one thing?

Because not everyone wants to settle for performance balanced camouflaged spec cars. Maybe Helio does as he's raced them all his life, in series where the "drivers are the stars", but he's not everyone.

It's also great that it automatically needs to be LMP1 that's killed off, not DPi, because that's the side he's on. "LMP2 is better for everyone"... right

I also don't get the Champcar reference, ACO and IMSA were never the same entity in the first place. And it was IMSA that decided to ditch the existing common platform in favor of something else, not the ACO

edit: If a mod could move this to the LMP Future regulations thread, thank you

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Chiana

https://www.autosport.com/imsa/news/...l--castroneves

"I don't think LMP1 is going to last for long. I hope LMP2 will become LMP1, it would be better for everyone. It's the situation like Champ Car and IRL.
What are we doing here? Why don't we just get one great series, the best from Europe, the best from America and let's make it one thing?

Because not everyone wants to settle for performance balanced camouflaged spec cars. Maybe Helio does as he's raced them all his life, in series where the "drivers are the stars", but he's not everyone.

It's also great that it automatically needs to be LMP1 that's killed off, not DPi, because that's the side he's on. "LMP2 is better for everyone"... right

I also don't get the Champcar reference, ACO and IMSA were never the same entity in the first place. And it was IMSA that decided to ditch the existing common platform in favor of something else, not the ACO

edit: If a mod could move this to the LMP Future regulations thread, thank you

Or maybe it's the fact there's currently 4 OEM's with another 2 coming in DPi, and only one extremely shaky one in P1?

[JLGarcia]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I also don't get the Champcar reference, ACO and IMSA were never the same entity in the first place. And it was IMSA that decided to ditch the existing common platform in favor of something else, not the ACO

Not a perfect analogy by any means, but the cult-like reverence of one particular race, to the detriment of all others, probably seems awfully familiar to him.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JLGarcia

Not a perfect analogy by any means, but the cult-like reverence of one particular race, to the detriment of all others, probably seems awfully familiar to him.

True, but it's not like the series he's racing right now doesn't have it's own more-important-than-anything-else (or so they claim) event/events as well.

Anyway, if P1 is so very weak as he seems to claim it is (even though there are as many P1s as there are DPis circulating) then he might as well ask Roger to turn up with his bare Oreca P2 at Le Mans and try to win it regardless... nothing stopping them, unlike there is people stopping P1s from entering IMSA. If the state of P1 is supposedly so crap, they will surely be in contention anyway? Isn't that the kind of stuff people like Zak Brown say...

Remember that it was Penske that wanted to run P1 in the States anyway, but he wasn't allowed to and had to settle for less... and "Acura" settled for DPi rebranding & slapping their engine into stock Oreca after HPD were rejected to run their own self built chassis again, in the spec galore that is P2 now

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Chiana

True, but it's not like the series he's racing right now doesn't have it's own more-important-than-anything-else (or so they claim) event/events as well.

Anyway, if P1 is so very weak as he seems to claim it is (even though there are as many P1s as there are DPis circulating) then he might as well ask Roger to turn up with his bare Oreca P2 at Le Mans and try to win it regardless... nothing stopping them, unlike there is people stopping P1s from entering IMSA. If the state of P1 is supposedly so crap, they will surely be in contention anyway? Isn't that the kind of stuff people like Zak Brown say...

Remember that it was Penske that wanted to run P1 in the States anyway, but he wasn't allowed to and had to settle for less

Just out of curiosity, where did you read/hear/saw this?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Just out of curiosity, where did you read/hear/saw this?

Admittedly that was bit of a stretch from me and I apologize, as it had less to do with factual evidence, and more based more on what the internet has been circulating for number of years. The rumor mills, second hand 'sources' here + the discussed Porsche-Penske linkup in 2013 and WEC possibility being far too expensive in comparison to running 919 regionally where it no longer was possible + later Audi-Penske inquiry for 2017 LM

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Admittedly that was bit of a stretch from me and I apologize, as it had less to do with factual evidence, and more based more on what the internet has been circulating for number of years. The rumor mills, second hand 'sources' here + the discussed Porsche-Penske linkup in 2013 and WEC possibility being far too expensive in comparison to running 919 regionally where it no longer was possible + later Audi-Penske inquiry for 2017 LM

I'm not sure how much substance and how much clickbait was actually behind those rumours. Remember, Penske doesn't do programs if they don't make financial sense; their first proper expansion overseas, over in Australia, is still a tie-up with Dick Johnson Racing and it makes extensive use of Penske's existing sponsorship arrangements (and it's still far below a major LMP1 works budget). Any LMP1 programme with Audi or Porsche would have only happened if the manufacturer still ponied up a significant share of the budget.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

I'm not sure how much substance and how much clickbait was actually behind those rumours. Remember, Penske doesn't do programs if they don't make financial sense; their first proper expansion overseas, over in Australia, is still a tie-up with Dick Johnson Racing and it makes extensive use of Penske's existing sponsorship arrangements (and it's still far below a major LMP1 works budget). Any LMP1 programme with Audi or Porsche would have only happened if the manufacturer still ponied up a significant share of the budget.

Fair enough in the case of Audi of which Roger told us about (they didn't want any presence whatsoever by 2017) but I think the Porsche deal, if there was truth in it, might've happened if there had been regional opportunity open for Penske to run it in the States. We know he wanted to return to sportscars as well as go to Le Mans (for overall honors). But that potential, regionally, was already killed off by the organizers year before the linkups even started, and as for running LM only I think them VW's decision not to run 3rd cars anymore after 2015 was the final nail in the head, even if Penske had co-funded it.

Maybe the situation would have been different if P1 hadn't been killed off from IMSA, but obviously that's just hypothetical.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matt

Or maybe it's the fact there's currently 4 OEM's with another 2 coming in DPi, and only one extremely shaky one in P1?

I've seen this mentioned since DPi was conceived, but it's yet to materialize. We have 10 lmp1's with 6 different teams running 4 different manufacturers/constructors. DPi is 4 different constructors (but actually lmp2 rebadged by manufacturers) and 11 cars. Seems about even to me. The thing is, with DPi they're not really 'new' cars. They're just rebadges of existing lmp2 chassis with a different engine. That's not what lmp2 was supposed to be and that's why the ACO told the manufacturers to leave lmp2 and go to lmp1. They don't deserve a pat on the back for an engine supply in a car they had no or little part in making imo.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Matt

Or maybe it's the fact there's currently 4 OEM's with another 2 coming in DPi, and only one extremely shaky one in P1?

Nismo is no more of a fourth OEM in IMSA than it is a second one in WEC.

[Deleted]

ByKolles is just as "Nissan" OEM prototype entry as ESM-Onroak-Ligier is... in other words, not at all. But the difference is that the Kolles guys are not pretending to be anything else than privateer team running a independent privateer chassis with customer engine. Chassis which they actually built from scratch by the way.

"Acura" is only there rebadging Oreca and handing over their engine because they're not allowed to run their own privateer HPD chassis like they originally wanted, due to the new cartel P2 rules both ACO and IMSA came up with without their agreement

"Mazda" has a history of (cheaply) making private teams run cars other people made and rebadging them as Mazda, but once they eventually will have to ditch the useless AER with whom they have had at least some co-operation (?), and go with Mecachrome or something else random to finally save their faces, how much of "Mazda" is there really in that Riley...

You could make a case that Chevrolet has at least SOME input in to the "Cadillac" rebading Dallara, just like they did with the "Corvette" DP, and yes I would agree it to be at least bit more than... you know basically nothing as with those other three, but c'mon it's still just provided engine, mildly modified headlights and aesthetics, and marketing budget for the various privateer teams running the entries... oh and the lawyers making the case in front of BoP committee of course

Why is it that these so called "OEMs", who want nothing to tdo with technology, engineering and development (which after all are absolutely core values at Le Mans) should be granted free access to winning Le Mans with their shoestring budget rebadged entities, while the P1s should not only have continued denied access to Daytona/Sebring/PLM for all eternity, but to be killed off altogether from Le Mans as well? This talks of "unification" or whatever it is makes no sense in number of levels, but especially considering there would only be benefit for the side these lobbyists are representing, not the already existing side at LM.

[Speedblood]

Originally Posted by TF110

I've seen this mentioned since DPi was conceived, but it's yet to materialize. We have 10 lmp1's with 6 different teams running 4 different manufacturers/constructors. DPi is 4 different constructors (but actually lmp2 rebadged by manufacturers) and 11 cars. Seems about even to me. The thing is, with DPi they're not really 'new' cars. They're just rebadges of existing lmp2 chassis with a different engine. That's not what lmp2 was supposed to be and that's why the ACO told the manufacturers to leave lmp2 and go to lmp1. They don't deserve a pat on the back for an engine supply in a car they had no or little part in making imo.

That's why I view DPi as a double edged sword, great in getting "OEM" involvement on a modest budget (and engine variety!) but not a good long term solution as the 4 car P2 builder list has been exhausted.

I just can't see anyone building a DPi car from scratch due to costs involved. Unless someone can convert a Ginetta/BR Engineering chassis (even if it's possible or legal) I don't see any others joining. I'll happily be surprised if one does though.
Any "teams" joining 9 times out of 10 are going to just pick a Oreca/Ligier-Gibson. Able to contend outright in IMSA, door open to run LMP2 at Le Mans/WEC/ELMS etc.

Shame that the DPi rules didn't come one year later or LMP1 privateer interest wasn't a year earlier. Maybe it could have been LMP1 based and finally allowing the same car to win or at least have a chance to win Daytona, Sebring and Le Mans again... ho hum

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speedblood

I just can't see anyone building a DPi car from scratch due to costs involved.

They're force mandated to run existing spec P2 chassis, so they can't even if they wanted to.

The "fifth OEM", if there is any, is going to be either second (Dallara) or third (Oreca, Onroak, Riley) clone variant of a chassis that already exists in the grid next to them.

Make no mistake, there is only one prototype category left in the world that is neither spec or quasi spec. That is LMP1. It is the only remaining category that truly deserves a title of PROTOTYPE.

(Maybe also CN but I'm not entirely familiar with the concept and how it is going right now with P3 and some other spec concepts taking away the little market space there was left)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

They're force mandated to run existing spec P2 chassis, so they can't even if they wanted to.

The "fifth OEM", if there is any, is going to be either second (Dallara) or third (Oreca, Onroak, Riley) clone variant of a chassis that already exists in the grid next to them.

Make no mistake, there is only one prototype category left in the world that is neither spec or quasi spec. That is LMP1. It is the only remaining category that truly deserves a title of PROTOTYPE.

(Maybe also CN but I'm not entirely familiar with the concept and how it is going right now with P3 and some other spec concepts taking away the little market space there was left)

The only thing that rivals lmp1's freedom is pikes peak unlimited class I am interested to see what that electric VW looks like though.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Speedblood

That's why I view DPi as a double edged sword, great in getting "OEM" involvement on a modest budget (and engine variety!) but not a good long term solution as the 4 car P2 builder list has been exhausted.

The trick is that it hasn't attracted literally any OEMs, because they were all rather happily racing in IMSA already with the same number of cars. It's just an answer to continuing to allow branded engines in LMP2 while bringing over some of Grand Am's long standing and largely irrelevant DP agenda items, why it's been pumped up so much is hard to understand besides politics. It was what IMSA needed to keep its existing players in the game but what growth there is has come almost entirely from the series being more welcoming of regular old ACO LMP2 cars instead of needing your LMP2 chassis to be fitted with an IMSA only engine so it can be BoP'd against an old Lola with an LMP1 engine and a mid-engined Trans-Am car with tunnels off a GTP.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

The only thing that rivals lmp1's freedom is pikes peak unlimited class I am interested to see what that electric VW looks like though.

Hmm yes maybe if we extend the definition beyond circuit racing )

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The trick is that it hasn't attracted literally any OEMs, because they were all rather happily racing in IMSA already with the same number of cars. It's just an answer to continuing to allow branded engines in LMP2 while bringing over some of Grand Am's long standing and largely irrelevant DP agenda items, why it's been pumped up so much is hard to understand besides politics. It was what IMSA needed to keep its existing players in the game but what growth there is has come almost entirely from the series being more welcoming of regular old ACO LMP2 cars instead of needing your LMP2 chassis to be fitted with an IMSA only engine so it can be BoP'd against an old Lola with an LMP1 engine and a mid-engined Trans-Am car with tunnels off a GTP.

Probably because most people despised the Daytona Prototypes for their 1960's state of affairs, but now that they are modern LMP cars instead, people are happy to ignore/forget the fact that it's the same exact ideological DP formula as before save the aesthetics, build type and power.

Also I think the masqueraded rebranding in DPG3 only went so far, I mean the Rileys were still called "Riley Ford Ecoboost" or "Riley-BMW" or whatever, not Ford DP or BMW DP... only the "Corvette DP" rebranded the real chassis underneath. The point is that now that IMSA only refers the DPis by the OEM name and wants you to forget who really made the chassis, people can more easily point to them being factory cars... which they are not of course

The quality of teams running those cars is also something people seem to get buzzed about, but they seem to forget that teams like Penske - while amazing of course - have long history of running spec cars in other affiliated NASCAR series and IndyCar anyway, this ain't ideologically different from that. There also seems to be few teams on that grid with the mentality of "this will do for now"... looking at you Joest, Penske (and to extent ESM)... the old Grand-Am DP teams representing "Cadillac" are the only people I'd expect to have really long term plan

Anyway agree!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbsmith;3804770[B

]The trick is that it hasn't attracted literally any OEMs, because they were all rather happily racing in IMSA already with the same number of cars.[/B] It's just an answer to continuing to allow branded engines in LMP2 while bringing over some of Grand Am's long standing and largely irrelevant DP agenda items, why it's been pumped up so much is hard to understand besides politics. It was what IMSA needed to keep its existing players in the game but what growth there is has come almost entirely from the series being more welcoming of regular old ACO LMP2 cars instead of needing your LMP2 chassis to be fitted with an IMSA only engine so it can be BoP'd against an old Lola with an LMP1 engine and a mid-engined Trans-Am car with tunnels off a GTP.

That's a big thing overlooked. These dpi's aren't new cars in the sense they're using already existing lmp2's, and they aren't new teams in the sense that the same guys/manufacturers that were already running GA and/or ALMS. I'd argue there's a loss actually. No DPi from Ford, Porsche, Lexus, BMW... then there's no lmp from Audi or HPd. It's Oreca, Ligier and Dallara. I'd like to count the Riley but they're nowhere even with the Mazda package. I can see the likeness for both DPi and lmp1, but I'm more for making your own car instead of branding and engine swaps. And if you do that, at least let them develop the thing.

[Speedblood]

Originally Posted by Chiana

They're force mandated to run existing spec P2 chassis, so they can't even if they wanted to.

That's even worse then... Even if it gets changed to allow scratch built I still don't think it will happen

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The trick is that it hasn't attracted literally any OEMs, because they were all rather happily racing in IMSA already with the same number of cars. It's just an answer to continuing to allow branded engines in LMP2 while bringing over some of Grand Am's long standing and largely irrelevant DP agenda items, why it's been pumped up so much is hard to understand besides politics. It was what IMSA needed to keep its existing players in the game but what growth there is has come almost entirely from the series being more welcoming of regular old ACO LMP2 cars instead of needing your LMP2 chassis to be fitted with an IMSA only engine so it can be BoP'd against an old Lola with an LMP1 engine and a mid-engined Trans-Am car with tunnels off a GTP

Agreed, it was OEM in the a loose sense. To the more casual outsider/IMSA marketing it works better than Riley-BMW/Riley-Ford/Coyote etc.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Also I think the masqueraded rebranding in DPG3 only went so far, I mean the Rileys were still called "Riley Ford Ecoboost" or "Riley-BMW" or whatever, not Ford DP or BMW DP... only the "Corvette DP" rebranded the real chassis underneath. The point is that now that IMSA only refers the DPis by the OEM name and wants you to forget who really made the chassis, people can more easily point to them being factory cars... which they are not of course

The quality of teams running those cars is also something people seem to get buzzed about, but they seem to forget that teams like Penske - while amazing of course - have long history of running spec cars in other affiliated NASCAR series and IndyCar anyway, this ain't ideologically different from that. There also seems to be few teams on that grid with the mentality of "this will do for now"... looking at you Joest, Penske (and to extent ESM)... the old Grand-Am DP teams representing "Cadillac" are the only people I'd expect to have really long term plan

It does grate me a bit when there is mention of a LMP2 car doing well battling a DPi it seems to be constantly referred to as "this is one of the LMP2/Global spec engine cars" or something similar when it's battling a DPi. It doesn't need any other reference, it's a Ligier, or an Oreca etc and it has a Gibson engine. It's like people are surprised that a specialist racing car manufacturer and a specialist racing engine builder can compete with a "OEM"...

To be fair teams come and go throughout all sorts series if the money calls. If Joest/Penske etc are in the series then it does bring some credibility as these teams have raced in high levels of racing, Penske used to build own Indycars, Porsche RS Spyder days Joest with own cars/Porsche/Audi Le Mans.

Originally Posted by TF110

That's a big thing overlooked. These dpi's aren't new cars in the sense they're using already existing lmp2's, and they aren't new teams in the sense that the same guys/manufacturers that were already running GA and/or ALMS. I'd argue there's a loss actually. No DPi from Ford, Porsche, Lexus, BMW... then there's no lmp from Audi or HPd. It's Oreca, Ligier and Dallara. I'd like to count the Riley but they're nowhere even with the Mazda package. I can see the likeness for both DPi and lmp1, but I'm more for making your own car instead of branding and engine swaps. And if you do that, at least let them develop the thing

If it was an OEM contracting Dallara/Ligier/Oreca to build a car/chassis specifically for them (such as Nissan with Lola, G-Force), (Audi/Chrysler with Dallara tubs etc) then I could view it differently.
I think this year will be interesting to see what/if any interest grows further in either LMP1 or DPi, particularly with new LMP1 rules on the horizon and the DPi "new car" numbers effectively maxed out.

[TF110]

Honestly I hope that both series can come together and make sure they use the same rules for lmp1/dpi in the near future. That would be the best way forward obviously. I really don't like watered down premier classes. I don't think the aco will go the route of dpi currently. And it looks like IMSA is on their high horse as well. It's hard to see a coming together currently but I think it can change with some big names dictating. For instance if Toyota wants to run a hypothetical TS060 in both series and brand it Lexus in America, but stipulates it will only race if it's the same car, and they have another manufacturer that brings big business or a big name like Ford or McLaren wanting the same; that might make a case for IMSA to get on board.

[Deleted]

Obviously I too would love to have one common structure on both sides of the Atlantic once again, after all what ALMS created was something truly special and rivaled Le Mans. But only if it retains the integrity and spirit of true prototype racing, which the style of DPi - or something akin to that - does not.

[tomerswayler]

If Le Mans wants to attract the IMSA teams, the cheapest solution surely would be to just let them race in their current configuration and adjust the rules on fuel flow and aero for LMP1(H) to match the speed. Maybe give LMP1(H) a small theoretical advantage of half a second according to ACO's simulations.

Make sure LMP2 is five to ten seconds behind the level of P1 and then go racing. Too simple?

[Irie]

If they want to race they should race to the same rules as anybody else in my opinion. So let them enter LMP1 but don't give them special compensations. They they already enter LMP1 - the chassis have the same width as far as I know - couldn't they? Maybe they wouldn't have the same performance as the other LMP1 cars but that should be their problem not one of the rulemaker.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

If Le Mans wants to attract the IMSA teams, the cheapest solution surely would be to just let them race in their current configuration and adjust the rules on fuel flow and aero for LMP1(H) to match the speed. Maybe give LMP1(H) a small theoretical advantage of half a second according to ACO's simulations.

Make sure LMP2 is five to ten seconds behind the level of P1 and then go racing. Too simple?

... which would immediately render having LMP1 chassis completely useless, if you can artificially get the same performance from cheap rebranded spec car.... so no

Originally Posted by Irie

I They they already enter LMP1 - the chassis have the same width as far as I know - couldn't they?

No they can't.

[Irie]

Originally Posted by Chiana

... which would immediately render having LMP1 chassis completely useless, if you can artificially get the same performance from cheap rebranded spec car.... so no



No they can't.

Are there crash tests missing or is it because of the bodywork (i.e. the nose wings)? If it is because of the bodywork they could slap the stock bodywork on and still race with the non Gibson engines

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Chiana

... which would immediately render having LMP1 chassis completely useless, if you can artificially get the same performance from cheap rebranded spec car.... so no

No... It wouldn't do that at all. First of all, the tub specs are the same between LMP1 and LMP2, so there is zero reason you can't sue the LMP2 tub as a base. Secondly, the DPi concept ITSELF is far more in line with LMP1, and Cadillac has made very clear that the concept makes it possible for a DPi to be made as fast as an LMP1-L without "artificial" assistance.