Driver weight in FF1600

[Redracer77]

this has been talked about before. The rules would help me quite nicely and I think it would go down well but it is like telling a basketball player he is not allowed to be 7ft tall!!!

It would allow closer racing but I am not sure it is in the spirit of FF1600 racing. Not good for people like Boyd but great for Justin We might even get Malc Barfoot back!!

[Point-5]

I did my first ff1600, (hopefully of many) at the WHT this weekend, being a very small guy (50kg) there was plenty of good hearted ribbing going on within our garage about my weight, with many of the other drivers working out how many of me equaled one of them...

So you would think I'm all for keeping the rule as is, but I'm not.... If I win a race the last thing I want is someone thinking, rightly or wrongly that I have an unfair advantage... However having said that I will need to affix 25kg of lead to my car to meet the minimum weight, and 25kilos of lead floating around in an accident is not something I relish to be honest..

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

this has been talked about before. The rules would help me quite nicely and I think it would go down well but it is like telling a basketball player he is not allowed to be 7ft tall!!!

It would allow closer racing but I am not sure it is in the spirit of FF1600 racing. Not good for people like Boyd but great for Justin We might even get Malc Barfoot back!!

Finally!!!!! I raised this point 2 or 3 years back when someone (mentioning no names here Mr Whitbourn!) was trying to get the weight limit changed. I wouldn't take up Basketball only to then start moaning about being disadvantaged through being a short arse and try and get the basket heights lowered or something.

I actually am not convinced it would allow closer racing - look at Zetec and duratec where there is a joint limit for driver and car - and I don't really see the racing is any closer than in Kent engined racing. I strongly believe that a talented driver can overcome any such weight advantage.

[mattray]

"overcome any such weight advantage."

by the, I am sure very scientific logic that 10kg's = 0.1-0.3 seconds how can a driver "overcome" the weight? they are still having to brake and accelerate the extra weight.

My point being, it will make no difference, lighter drivers will adjust their driving just as neil says and no doubt be as fast as they were.

The real question is why were they not 0.1-0.3 seconds faster before they had to carry the weight?

[JustinDawkins]

Possibly, or some may not. You may find that some very light drivers are flattered by their weight, and are not quite as good as they seem.

[Tim Draffan]

Originally Posted by chris1600

I'm sure the heavier drivers could loose a few pounds if they were concerned that it was slowing them down.

And Ford/BRSCC or whoever makes up the rules gets sued for encouraging
young drivers to become bulimic or anorexic as David Coulthard as admitted
to in his early career!

[simes43]

Originally Posted by JustinDawkins

Possibly, or some may not. You may find that some very light drivers are flattered by their weight, and are not quite as good as they seem.

Spot on! The amount of "quick" drivers who have and still do enjoy a significant power to weight ratio over the rest of the field due to weight regs is huge.

[Robin Webster]

Right can I put something right here!

It is assumed by the Bantam weights posting here that larger drivers are over weight, lazy, fat and could do with loosing a few pounds!

This is not so! (Well, not in all cases)

If any 60Kg skinny bilinky wants to arm wrestle my 95Kgs we'll see if it's fat or muscle I'm carrying!! Also I'm 1.84m.

So, does that mean I shouldn't race unless I'm rich enough to buy a ride in a GT car?

Robin

[chris1600]

There is alot of talk about how many tenths a lap advantage lighter drivers have, and the fact they may benifit from greater acceleration. I would imagine that you are more likely to acheive greater acceleration through having a very well tuned/assembled and reasonably fresh engine than through being a bit lighter. When spectating you notice some engines sound crisper louder than others. These tend to be towards the front of the field. A nice new set of tyres is got to help acceleration as well.

And the futility of this rule is emphised by me. I have got to be within the 5 lightest drivers at Combe and sadly i'm probably one of the 5 slowest. I'm not slow because I have a weight disadvantage but because I don't drive hard enough.

So why does weight matter so much? Or is it only to try to slow a driver who is very talented, has a good car, plenty of money and is light. Because i only have one of those attributes.

[simes43]

The point being that 25 kg will not create a grid full of equal cars, all setting fastest lap.

What it offers to those competing at the front is an even power to weight ratio within the formula. Once you move up the grid, it becomes a larger problem, as tenths of a second are what usually wins races.

There is still a benefit to lighter racers. Ballast can be optimised and less expensive parts can be used.

[Chris Horton]

Originally Posted by chris1600

There is alot of talk about how many tenths a lap advantage lighter drivers have, and the fact they may benifit from greater acceleration. I would imagine that you are more likely to acheive greater acceleration through having a very well tuned/assembled and reasonably fresh engine than through being a bit lighter. When spectating you notice some engines sound crisper louder than others. These tend to be towards the front of the field. A nice new set of tyres is got to help acceleration as well.

And the futility of this rule is emphised by me. I have got to be within the 5 lightest drivers at Combe and sadly i'm probably one of the 5 slowest. I'm not slow because I have a weight disadvantage but because I don't drive hard enough.

So why does weight matter so much? Or is it only to try to slow a driver who is very talented, has a good car, plenty of money and is light. Because i only have one of those attributes.

I wouldn't say it's a futile rule. Undoubtedly I agree with you that there is far more in driver to driver variability then there is in weight differential. I would also venture that to exploit the weight benefit to the full then you need to also exploit it under braking and in corners which us mid-field contenders are much less likely to do then those at the sharp end. Therefore I would say that for me personally (of average weight, height and ability) it's going to make little difference. However, it does come down to what you perceive Formula Ford to be about and what you consider to be 'fair' variables to compete on. I think the poll reflects that a lot of people don't want driver weight (within reason) to be a factor.

As someone doing a lot of work in one make formulas, I have seen first hand that all the variables (tyre degradation, engine performance etc) except driver skill and chassis setup are unpopular because very few people consider themselves to have an advantage through them - tyres and engines just become an expensive irritant. Even those with an advantage in an area perceive themselves as only being equal to their top competitors, never better. Curiously though I think the variation and diversity in chassis makes the FF1600 more interesting than single make series, as long as a number of the chassis end up relatively competitive and that 'this years' chassis doesn't instantly make all the old ones obsolete.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Tim Draffan

And Ford/BRSCC or whoever makes up the rules gets sued for encouraging
young drivers to become bulimic or anorexic as David Coulthard as admitted
to in his early career!

That might shake them up!!

[rogmil]

I have just come across this forum and this thread (thanks to Nick Hewitt) so forgive my late comments. To keep this as brief as possible:

1) I have some lap simulation software (free from Bosch at www.bosch-motorsport.com and a really good piece of software). This shows that adding 10Kg to an F3 car on the Donnington GP circuit slows the car by 0.3s with a lap time of around 1:30. I have tried to modify the definition of the F3 car to make it into a FF1600 (with the help of Dave Morgan) and the difference from 480Kg to 490Kg is 0.23s with a lap time of 1:44, I don't know if this a realistic time or not.
2) 75 Kg seems low to me. The Body Mass Index (BMI) (the figures used by doctors to determine if someone is over weight) shows that a 6ft person can weigh 83Kg and not be over weight. If we assume drivers can be taller than this a 6’3” driver can weigh 90Kg (could a 6’3” driver fit in a FF1600?). If we want to make FF1600 really open we might want to go a little above the BMI figures. (I am 5'9" and weigh 84Kg, but will get this down to 80kg which is what I was a year ago). (You can find BMI calculators on the web, e.g. www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/)

My view is that allowing for driver weight is good because we should not put tall drivers at a disadvantage (it also helps me of course!). In addition the more level the playing field the more drivers there will be in FF1600 which is good for all of us. We need to consider the position of the C of G as lighter drivers can position the ballast to aid handling. If the limit was to become 90Kg where a 60Kg driver would put 30Kg of ballast in a FF1600 is an interesting question.

A couple of other points:

1) If we want standard weights across all championships should the MSA be involved ? Driver weight should ideally be standard across all formulae.
2) I saw a TV program recently about health problems jockeys have keeping their weight down. We need reasonable weights so motosport doesn’t have the same problems.

So what do people think?

[Triple J Motorsport]

Formula Ford Zetec (FF1800) driver weight is/was 75kg in full race gear including Helmet. I was told this was raised for FFDuratec can't remember the limit thought anyone know? The FFDuratec driver limit is what should be used in all FFs, I can believe FF1600 has lasted this long without it being put in place. If it exists in FF1800 (Zetec) and FFDuratec why isn't it in FF1600??

[dhart]

Duratech min weight 415kg ......plus driver min weight 495kg.

http://www.britishformulaford.co.uk/...0Version01.pdf

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by dhart

Duratech min weight 415kg ......plus driver min weight 495kg.

http://www.britishformulaford.co.uk/...0Version01.pdf

David,

When we did Formula E did we ever bother about our size - bearing in mind we both ain't small

Cheers,

Alan

[chris1600]

Originally Posted by Chris Horton

I wouldn't say it's a futile rule. Undoubtedly I agree with you that there is far more in driver to driver variability then there is in weight differential. I would also venture that to exploit the weight benefit to the full then you need to also exploit it under braking and in corners which us mid-field contenders are much less likely to do then those at the sharp end. Therefore I would say that for me personally (of average weight, height and ability) it's going to make little difference. However, it does come down to what you perceive Formula Ford to be about and what you consider to be 'fair' variables to compete on. I think the poll reflects that a lot of people don't want driver weight (within reason) to be a factor.

As someone doing a lot of work in one make formulas, I have seen first hand that all the variables (tyre degradation, engine performance etc) except driver skill and chassis setup are unpopular because very few people consider themselves to have an advantage through them - tyres and engines just become an expensive irritant. Even those with an advantage in an area perceive themselves as only being equal to their top competitors, never better. Curiously though I think the variation and diversity in chassis makes the FF1600 more interesting than single make series, as long as a number of the chassis end up relatively competitive and that 'this years' chassis doesn't instantly make all the old ones obsolete.

Those are all good points and to an extent I agree. The great variety of different cars is one of the things that I like best about FF1600. Obviously the one point I don't agree on is the issue of driver weight.

More generally a few thought to support my opinion...

If the limit was 490kg then I wouldn't be that bothered. But if that made me happy, the I guess the lady mentioned earlier on who was beleived to weigh 55 kgs (as opposed to my 60) would still be unhappy. You allways will have people who want a higher or lower limit.

FF1600 has lasted 40 years without this, why is it necesary now. We are not exactly facing grids of 12 cars are we.

Maybe there is no need to try to contrive a situation where only driver ability and set up ability are important. FF1600 is not widley used by drivers aiming for F1 or a proffesional career. We all do it for fun. Everyone wants to do well, but I expect most people are here just to enjoy good racing.

At WHT this issue was mentioned by the commentator, who said Gavin Wills supported it and apparently he is a little larger than in his youth. The commentator also said at another time that Gavin Wills hadn't lost a race this year. The second statement implies that Mr Wills need not worry about being beaten by a lighter driver. (No offence meant to Mr Wills and sorry to use names. However I beleive it backs up my point)

[dhart]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

David,

When we did Formula E did we ever bother about our size - bearing in mind we both ain't small

Cheers,

Alan

If you remember Alan the Formula E mafia tried an all inclusive weight limit... strangely the exact weight of one certain driver and HIS car.... it didnt seem to make any difference at all to the grid.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by dhart

If you remember Alan the Formula E mafia tried an all inclusive weight limit... strangely the exact weight of one certain driver and HIS car.... it didnt seem to make any difference at all to the grid.

Actually I didn't know that. In those days I couldn't care less as I was having to much fun.

In hindsight I can see your point of view.

[diz]

Originally Posted by dhart

If you remember Alan the Formula E mafia tried an all inclusive weight limit... strangely the exact weight of one certain driver and HIS car.... it didnt seem to make any difference at all to the grid.

Mafia is a bit harsh Dave.
In Formula E it was 500kg all up, i.e. 80kg [12 st 7 lb IIRC] for the driver.
It definitely helped you and a few others.
I think the certain driver you refer to was as heavy as 19 st 7 lb in his race winning prime, so he was still at a seven stone disadvantage even with the all up weight limit in "Formula Fatty"

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by diz

Mafia is a bit harsh Dave.
In Formula E it was 500kg all up, i.e. 80kg [12 st 7 lb IIRC] for the driver.
It definitely helped you and a few others.
I think the certain driver you refer to was as heavy as 19 st 7 lb in his race winning prime, so he was still at a seven stone disadvantage even with the all up weight limit in "Formula Fatty"

That's why we had that big bit of "Heavy steel" bolted to the floor of our car

(Our car was underweight according to the Oulton Weighbridge)

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by dhart

Duratech min weight 415kg ......plus driver min weight 495kg.

http://www.britishformulaford.co.uk/...0Version01.pdf

As I thought the limit was raised to 80kg for fully kitted driver, sounds good to me.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by chris1600

If the limit was 490kg then I wouldn't be that bothered. But if that made me happy, the I guess the lady mentioned earlier on who was beleived to weigh 55 kgs (as opposed to my 60) would still be unhappy. You allways will have people who want a higher or lower limit.

If you are talking about Jen the lady Barry ran it was in a FFZetec so has a driver weight.

[chris1600]

Originally Posted by Triple J Motorsport

If you are talking about Jen the lady Barry ran it was in a FFZetec so has a driver weight.

Yes, thats what I was referring to. I meant that if whatever you may set a driver weight at, it is likely that there will be prople who would like it adjusted. Therefore it would be better to leave things as they are.

[Chris Horton]

Originally Posted by chris1600

Yes, thats what I was referring to. I meant that if whatever you may set a driver weight at, it is likely that there will be prople who would like it adjusted. Therefore it would be better to leave things as they are.

I'd disagree because I bet most racers are a similar weight, c.75kg. They might disagree on the exact ideal number, but they'd much prefer a sensible limit rather than no limit where they can easilly be at a 15kg disadvantage to the lightest person. Of course, you'll always get a proportion of people disagreeing but in this poll they are significantly in the minority.