Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 Sep 2016, 21:42 (Ref:3670612)   #1
Taxi645
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 269
Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Three stage DRS

In principle I'm not in favor of DRS because in my view one should set up a pass in the corners not just the straights, it is overly powerful and furthermore it should be about the battle for position not the change of position itself. DRS is classic F1 policy of treating the symptom (namely lack of overtaking) rather than the cause (aero layouts which don't facilitate battling for position in the corners). Something we see all to often (tracks limits to name one).

But ok, knowing that we won't have aero rules next year that will help battling in the corners and knowing DRS won't go away very soon, what could one do to improve it's influence on racing?

To me the problem with DRS is, except for the general objection mentioned above, is that it's current fixed implementation is not equally suitable for each track. What I mean by this is, that on some tracks it's too powerful, virtually guaranteeing a pass rather that merely aiding it and on others it's not powerful enough.

I almost fell off of my chair of disbelief about the comments on Verstappen's move on the Kemmel straight. In stead of criticizing the fact that as a result of DRS the speed difference become so great that normal racecraft (you know the thing normal people like about motorsport) is considered dangerous, Verstappen get's criticized for racing in the first place!

What you want is that with a good exit, a driver following is able to pull alongside the car in front, or near that anyway, at the end of the straight so that entering a brake duel or keen positioning in the subsequent corners will decide who will take the position. What we see now on many tracks is that cars just blast by (too fast to safely defend according to some) and there is no brake duel to speak of because the car has passed too far anyway. That's not race craft, it's not even show business, it's pure and utter boredom (and a really expensive form of it).

So my solution would be to either fine tune the position of the start of the DRS activation zones on each track so that cars will be next to each other at the end of the straight in stead of guaranteeing a pass (with a big margin). Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. Race craft will decide. Alternatively you could give DRS three stage of effectiveness depending how easy it is on to overtake on each track.

A few examples of track that could use some adjustment (not a complete list):
Canada
Austria
Baku
Kemmel Straight at Spa
etc.
Taxi645 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 01:31 (Ref:3670640)   #2
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,344
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
A few thoughts...

1. IMHO, you totally missed the point about the Vestappen criticism, but that is a topic for a different thread.

2. More details on how a multiphase DRS might work? Particularly with respect to the points directly below.

3. To your point about blowing past the other guy with ease vs a braking dual... I am lazy as I can only think back to Spa and passes on the Kimmel straight. I think exit speed out of Raidillon and general car performance (power and aero trim) is a bigger indicator of "ease" of passing in that situation. I feel some just got an excellent run out of Raidillon while the other guy didn't. If the two cars and drivers are more evenly match, then the pass attempt happens much later and without guarantee of success.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 09:13 (Ref:3670702)   #3
steve_r
Veteran
 
steve_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
England
European Capital of Culture 2008
Posts: 2,168
steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
There is no need to over-complicate things with different stages of DRS. As you rightly pointed out - it's the DRS zone positioning and length at each track that should be tweaked.

The real solution would be to introduce regulations that massively reduce aero grip and instead increase reliance on mechanical grip. That does not look like happening soon though.

The Verstappen criticism was not an attack on him racing.
steve_r is offline  
__________________
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 14:11 (Ref:3670745)   #4
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 9,483
Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
No, DRS is an absolute shocker and I think its sad that other series are "adopting it" too.
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 19:39 (Ref:3670797)   #5
ScotsBrutesFan
Race Official
Veteran
 
ScotsBrutesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Scotland
West Lothian
Posts: 4,666
ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!
DRS is an engineering solution to a current aero-engineering problem that F1 has brought upon itself. The engineers can't or won't step back, so engineer their way forward.

The issue of it being too powerful is as others have commented down to the measuring point, and then the placement and length of the Zone.
ScotsBrutesFan is online now  
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 21:23 (Ref:3670819)   #6
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 5,455
chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!
a bit of a rant alert here

typically the most expense seats at a GP are along the straight (main grandstand but mainly the luxury boxes) and are imo typically filled up with people who are either there for the first time or those who dont know there are much better sight lines to be found elsewhere. (thats a gross generalization i know so please no offence to anyone who genuinely prefers sitting here).

obviously personal preference here, but outside of the start there is not much action along the straight. for me, i like sitting near corners or hairpins as thats where you can really see the cars move around, change direction, slow down and speed up because you cant pick up details when the cars are whizzing by at +200mph (or maybe i just like them more because these seats are slightly cheaper and have the words 'dont panic' written on the back of them).

anyways, the cynical part of me (maybe tin foil hat part of me) thinks DRS is really just there to make the premium/luxury seats feel more exciting by creating the appearance of racing/passing on parts of the track that typically doesn't see much action (in the modern era anyways) and that just so happens to coincide with an area of seats that cost the most amount of money.

its a necessary value added when the most expensive seats in the house tend to be the worst ones from a live spectator perspective.

sad to say but i think they have their zones placed out exactly where they want them to be.

Last edited by chillibowl; 7 Sep 2016 at 21:28.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 22:21 (Ref:3670827)   #7
Mike Harte
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 2,324
Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
chillibowl, in theory you may be correct, but the reality is to question whether the FIA or FOM ever cared about paying spectators. I would argue that FOM has actually done everything in it's power to actually stop people coming to live races, both by putting them on in countries that really have no interest in F1, and worse still, levying the astronomical sanctioning fees on the circuits that have to be passed on to the buying public or from the public purse i.e. local or national taxpayers.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 22:35 (Ref:3670828)   #8
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 5,455
chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!
fair point...i was thinking more for the luxury boxes/hospitality area spectators who i believe pay FOM directly for the privilege of premium seating.

any benefits and increased price to those sitting on the main grandstand would be a way to help the local promoter offset the huge sanctioning fees.

wasnt very clear on that....was too busy ranting! sorry.

but yeah regardless, your point stands...how much does FOM really care about those who attend live.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 7 Sep 2016, 23:11 (Ref:3670835)   #9
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,344
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
All good points above. I tend to think that DRS was an easy "fix" (if you can call it a fix) to the lack of passing. I think any benefit to spectating along the something like the main straight was an unintended, but likely positive benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
but yeah regardless, your point stands...how much does FOM really care about those who attend live.
Probably just enough to prevent the stands from looking empty on TV. But that can be somewhat addressed by ensuring that the TV director (controlled by FOM right?) knows not to show much in the way of empty stands during the event.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 08:16 (Ref:3670930)   #10
Taxi645
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 269
Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'll skip the Verstappen bit, for obvious reasons.

3 stage DRS would work like this:

The DRS mechanism allows for three levels of effectiveness of the DRS:

1: zero to almost no DRS effect (Baku/Mexico)
2: between one and three, roughly half the effectiveness of the current implementation (Canada, Spa, Austria, etc, etc)
3: equal to the current setting for tracks which are though enough for overtaking already (Monaco, Hungary, etc, etc)

The FIA would decide which of the three would be appropriate for each circuit.

But I agree with most of you, as mentioned in the first post, that tweaking of the start and therefore length of the activation zone, would be much easier.

I think the current implementation of the activation zones is a result of a flawed logic that overtaking MUST be provided (and thus easy) to have a good race, so the activation zones are maxed out in length on the available straight to do just that. Where as in reality, what makes good racing is good battles for position, which may or may not work the first time round and where race craft becomes much more of a deciding factor again.

To do that the length of the activation zones should be looked at for each track and the ones where we see too many "blast by passes" would see a revision of their length. This could be anything from 0 to 500m reduction in length. The goal being that when someone makes a move the cars will on average be alongside at the end of the straight rather that one be four car lengths passed. This finetuning would take a bit of work, but would very easy with the technology already available.


I'll admit straight away, like Richard says, that far more factors are involved, like differences in PU output, aero setting, differences in battery deployment. However in general I reckon that stating that on some tracks the activation zones are too long based on flawed logic and that tuning their length on certain tracks would be to the benefit of racing would be quite easily to hold up.


PS. again I would also prefer for there to be no need for DRS, but they are not listening.
Taxi645 is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 12:34 (Ref:3670960)   #11
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 9,483
Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The lack of overtaking is chiefly down to two factors;

1) design of the cars
2) design of the tracks

Since I don't want to see classic tracks torn up, in my view that means the cars need to be the thing that changes.

Having said that, the design of some of the newer circuits is appalling, both in terms of simply offering a "good layout" and also for promoting overtaking. I think they offer us a view that the circuit layout is very much a secondary consideration when building a track. As long as they can have their massive hotels and VIP areas, they don't care if the track has any kind of flow or is a challenge to drive.

The cars themselves, well what can I say that hasn't been said a thousand times. Less aero, more mechanical grip. I really don't know what they are thinking with the 2017 rules and increasing the aero. I think if they reduced the aero slightly (from currently levels) and just gave us the wider tyres, wider track cars, it would be a good step. What happened to the notion of underbody aero? Was that scrapped?
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 12:48 (Ref:3670961)   #12
Number4
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
England
The Dead South
Posts: 186
Number4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Get rid of the DRS zones, put a switch from an old Cessna on the dash, let the drivers choose flaps 0/5/10/15/20 degrees whenever they want.
Number4 is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 13:41 (Ref:3670978)   #13
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,344
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
The lack of overtaking is chiefly down to two factors;

1) design of the cars
2) design of the tracks

Since I don't want to see classic tracks torn up, in my view that means the cars need to be the thing that changes.


Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 13:43 (Ref:3670981)   #14
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,344
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Number4 View Post
Get rid of the DRS zones, put a switch from an old Cessna on the dash, let the drivers choose flaps 0/5/10/15/20 degrees whenever they want.
Active aero could be a real differentiator for F1. But we would have to make sure it doesn't turn into DRS on steroids (artificial).

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2016, 16:10 (Ref:3671014)   #15
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 5,455
chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!chillibowl is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
... I think any benefit to spectating along the something like the main straight was an unintended, but likely positive benefit.
no doubt thats far closer to the truth then the conspiracy i was putting together in that rant lol.

anyways back on topic, along the lines of what could actually be done with active aero, as number4 suggested, would DRS be less ridiculous if its use was allowed at any point on the track?

would both the lead and following driver both using it at the same time just cancel each other out in effect?

if the radio ban was still in effect and drivers had to make these decisions for themselves in real time then i would like to see that.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Tech Issue] DRS ban in Monaco tunnel? Marbot Formula One 21 25 May 2011 14:31
DRS to be banned.... Mr V Formula One 116 9 May 2011 18:05
Drs. Trammel & Olvey not to be retained by OWRS Dov ChampCar World Series 75 25 Feb 2004 16:37


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 14:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.