Lola T 60 & 62

[rkshanahan]

Chris,
My mistake-Lamplough bought Offendstadt's car and sold it on to John Cullen in '66-'67. Sorry, but I am trying to sort through ten years of scribbled notes.
Rob

[Chris Townsend]

Rob

That makes more sense! It's also interesting because it suggests that the Marchesi car in 1967 might be something other than 60-4. [My attribution of the Marchesi-Offenstadt linkage comes from a single magazine source. Though I'll have to check my notes on Cullen's ownership]

Do we have any experts on mid '60s F3 who could suggest who had chassis 7, 10,11,12?

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Chris.
This is probably going to make it more confusing ,however.
I have a set of trails from I think Alan Putt re. BRJ-51 which is over here,the trails are for BRJ-51 through to BRJ-58.

BRJ-57 MK5A MRP 1963
MRP 1964
then rebuilt as type 54,
then rebuilt as type 55 ,
1965 Ecurie Lola-Holbay [J. BRUYEX ] ???? SIC.
1966 GEORGES TAQUET.

BRJ-58 , MK5A
1963 Winkleman Racing.
1964 rebuilt as SL2/64.
Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Rob.
I don't know if the magazine ever went to the U.S.
In the Feb. 1966 edition of a U.K. magazine titled Motor Racing , is an excellent track test article , 2 pages incl. photos of F2 and F3 Lola T60s.

For info. only , apparently the difference ,apart from eng /gearbox , between T54 and T55 appears to revolve around the alteration from T54 4 stud rear wheels to T55 6 stud rear wheels.
Bryan. I know this doesn't assist you.

[rkshanahan]

Bryan,
Thanks, I will try to find a copy of the Motor Racing article.
I was just trying to add things up, and it all makes better sense if the Lamplough/Williams deal involved 5 cars, not 4, with Robs getting the used cars 60-4 and 62-8, and Frank getting the last three cars 62-10,11,12. Then 60-4 goes to Cullen, 62-8 to L'Amie, 62-10 to Pittard, and 62-12 to Dagorn ( these last two based on color). Could the cars sold to Dragoni (62-7 and 62-9) be the 'Italian F3' cars?
Based on the tachometer and brakes on my car, Robs felt it was an F3 car, not F2. That would eliminate 5 of the chassis #'s.
I have e-mailed Robs and asked him to look all this over and comment.
Does anyone know how to contact Peter Denty to check on the chassis # of his car?

Rob

[Bryan Miller]

Rob.
Peter Denty[Racing].
Mill House, East Wretham,nr.Thetford,
Norfolk IP24 1QS,United Kingdom.
Tel. 01953498529.
Fax. 01953498154.

Can't resist , don't you just love some of these U.K addresses , for heavens sake nr. Thetford , what does that mean , yes I know, near,over here that could mean 500 miles.

Bryan.

[Roger H]

Rob
I'm afraid my T60 didn't have a chassis plate by the time it arrived with me. The general consensus was that it was one of the Williams F3 cars, based on talks with variuos bods including one of the MRP chaps. Interestingly when I bought the car I phoned Lola who still had a guy working part time after retirement who had been involved in building the cars originaly and he proved very helpful. What I couldn't do was prove it was an F2, a shame as I had an SCA sitting in the workshop.
Roger

[DaveM]

This is presumably 62-8/64-8, as it is driven by John L'Amie. The venue is Rufforth in October 67.

[ROBSL]

Fellows
I started this one and have of course seen Rob Shanahans excellent example in SD.
I have personally owned 3 of these cars all these years ago
62/12 F3 Yellow, New Car purchased winter 66/67 which I sold new to a Michel Daghorn Paris, incl Cosworth MAE

64/8 F2 Dark Blue which I purchased as having done one Race Karlskoga F2 Dvr John Surtees: Hewland Mk7 6 speed + LSD. Raced 1967 fitted Lotus 'Twin Cam' 1600cc in many F2 European Championship events + scored only 1 Championship point (6th place Jarama?) Also many F.Libre in UK and Eire.
Sold to John L'Amie end of season

60/4 F2 Black Bought from Eric Offenstat incl BRM 1000cc in 1967. Sold to Cullen 1967 less engine.

I was involved with the purchase of 62/10 F3 Red which Frank Williams definately sold to Boley Pittard and in which he was killed at Monza (left one of the fuel caps off, fuel surged forward under braking and caught fire- I believe on impact with barrier/wall?)

62/11 F3 Green Cosworth MAE I recall this machine and colour since these 3 F3 cars the last were a 'package' deal jointly purchased with Frank Wlliams.

I recently spoke to Frank(within past 5 years) who recalls Boley's accident but does recall the other car.

To answer Chris T's question is that Rob Shanahan had forgotten my 'trading' the Offenstat car and must have confused it with one of the 4 cars that Frank and I bought.

Offenstat and I were also regular F3 dicers in those days(Monaco,1967)as well as doing F2. The car was also on a carnet as I recall and had to be taken out of France otherwise pay a heavy Customs penalty (Circa 60% in those days + lodging a bank guarantee)

My 64/8 was easily distinguishable with its original bodywork as it had two enormous aluminimium air intake louvres on top of where your knees sit.
A very good Surtees Mod!!

Does anyone know where this one ended up? I still have some good photo's of it.
ROBS LAMPLOUGH

[Bryan Miller]

All.

I am reasearching other cars , but in Autosport Aug. 8 1969, the Mondello report lists both Brian Nelson and Brian Cullen in Lola T60 t/c.
So that takes care of 60-2 and 60-4 in Ireland end of 1969.

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Following on from above post, A/S page 46 oct-23-1969,photo and report of Featherstone in ex. MRP Lola T60 at Castlecombe, this presumably is the car Chris refers to as being wrecked and maybe the car retained by Peter Denty.
Pity we can't get a number on it at this stage , so as to eliminate another entity.
Bryan.

[rkshanahan]

Bryan,
I called Peter Denty Racing, and though Peter was not in, I was told that he does indeed have a Lola T60, but that he would have to get back to me with the chassis #. I sent a fax as a reminder, as well. Hopefullly we will hear something soon.
I took down my bodywork out of the attic and scraped it down. My nose section was originally yellow, but the two side pieces were originally blue, so something has been replaced. If I had to bet, I would say it is more likely the nose was replaced, as I can't imagine a shunt that would damage both sides and not do major damage to the monocoque. If my car was originally blue and an F3 this presents a problem--the only blue F3 car appears to be 60-1, which Roger's notes identify as being 1.5" shorter. On the assumption that that referred to wheelbase, I put the suspension on my car and measured its wheelbase, which seems to be around 89"-90" (hard to be exact with things not bolted on securely). My spec. sheet from Lola quotes 88", so I don't think my car is short wheelbase.
This only leaves F2 cars in blue--60-3, 61-6, and 62-8. Robs thought my car was an F3 based on its 10,000rpm tach (F2 would have 12,000) and his recollection that his car (62-8) had bigger brakes. Can anyone else think of a good way to distinguish an F3 from an F2? My car also has mounts on the outside of the tub for the big Lucas 'black bomb' fuel injection pump, but its possible they all did. I also feel my car is an earlier version than 62-11 based on detail differences on the tub. 62-11 just looked more evolved, with better sealing around the master cylinder mount and a cleaner installation of the front bulkhead.
Rob

[allenbrown]

Welcome Robs! Great to see you here.

Allen

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes I agree, welcome Robs!

[Andrew Kitson]

I think this is Surtees in a T60 at Oulton in '65.

[ROBSL]

Thanks folks for the welcome. It just started with me trying to solve the identity problem on Rob Shanahans car which of course was of great interest to me and still is.
I have one further piece of info which some time ago I copied to Rob S.
It is that as an impoverished F3 driver I moved into rented accommodation in Adam & Eve Mews just off Ken High St in Jan 1966.
It was from there that looking for gainful employ the Eric Broadley offered me a job during the annual Racing Car Show in Olympia, just down the road. I helped man the stand but in my spare time went around the other exhibitors stands. During the course of this I collected brochures, information and specification sheets from all of the racing Car Manufacturers. Most of these originals I retain today.
They run to many hundreds of pages and I did check and discover that I still have the Lola hand out sheet titled
"FORMULA II CAR, TYPE 60 -SPCIFICATION"...................................
I would be happy to share this information with genuine historians etc however I am not quite sure nor have the capacity to go about the task? Any ideas?

I notice that the hand out has been altered by hand on the rim widths for the car.
Also the engine quoted are either BRM or Cosworth SCA. Hence I would assume Rob S's car could have been set up with fuel injection in '65 or '66 for the BRM (from memory there were only 10 fuel injected Cosworth SCA engines all built in 1966 and I'm sure that 64/8 was one of these. It also had had deep blue sides Rob. Incidently they reputedly gave 140-144BHP from 1000cc!! at 10800 rpm
Does anyone know what L'Amie did with 64/8.
The Lola Spec sheet quotes the car Fitted with Girling brakes front 10" and rear 9.5" dia.
It certainly sounds as if Rob S' car is this one or one of the other MRP F2's cars since its probably F2 and blue. The only other way it could have Lucas 'Bomb' is if someone used it in SCCA Formula B with a 1600cc Vegantune TC.
From memory the MRP F2 cars were all with Carburettored Cosworth SCA. So maybe it is my old Car after all!! I hope so it couldn't be in better hands.

Without saying anything other than I was extremely lucky, I believe that I never had any accidents in some 20+ races. At least I cannot recall any - a common driver situation!! I'm sure someone will come in with a photo of me upside down somewhere and I only make the point as I believe I sold the car with its original nose.
Of course I would be delighted if Rob S' car turned out to be my old 64/8. Perhaps the contemporary car in which I had the most fun. It was simple , fast, and a joy to drive.

ROBSL

[allenbrown]

Hi Robs

Your name has also come up in conversation on the Lotus 35 thread. Do you still own the Lotus 35 you had in 2000? Either way, I'm sure they'd love to know more about it.

Thanks

Allen

[ROBSL]

Allen,
Affirmitive
RobsL

[rkshanahan]

Hi everyone,
I am wondering if the fact that my chassis has mounts for the Lucas 'Black Bomb' fuel pump is significant. I always assumed that all the cars got them, but FI wasn't allowed in F3, and it sounds like the early F2 cars ran carbs as well. When I hear back from Peter Denty and the owner of 62-11 I will ask if their cars have the mounts. I will also post pictures of the mounts so you can see what I am talking about.
Rob

[rkshanahan]

OK, someone is going to have to help me figure out how to post a picture. I have reduced the picture size to 320 x 240 pixels (jpeg format), but when I click the browse button, go to the folder, and double click on the photo, nothing happens. Any hints?
Rob

[Andrew Kitson]

If you have probs, try e-mailing the jpeg to me and I will try to upload it for you. info@andrewkitson.com

[Expat]

Gents,

Just in case you had not already come across this car and web link:

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/lol...1/t62011ss.htm

Would appear to be one of the three cars sold by Robs and Frank Williams but not much history offered !

[ROBSL]

Bryan
I believe I raced 64/8 in Pheonix Park, Eire in '67. Had a race long dice with John Watson who was in my old Brabham BT 16 (ex Denny Hulme Honda powered F2, fitted with Twin cam Lotus). Pouring with rain and plenty of Giraffes watching from the Zoo!
The Irish lads really took to the Lolas.
RobsL

[rkshanahan]

Hi Everyone,
I had an interesting day today--recieved a reply from Joe Cavaglieri, the man who restored and just sold 62-11. He confirmed that the car was originally green but he preffered the dark blue. He also confirmed that the car had no fuel pump mounts on the outside of the tub. Joe also said the car came to the states early on in its life and was raced by a Joe Scuria. The car has been sold to a new owner here in California.
I am thinking that these fuel pump mounts are significant, now that I know only a few of the cars would have been fuel injected. The mounts are hard riveted on to the tub and match the rest of the chassis in construction--I am convinced they are original. I have also seen photos of another car with the pump in the same location. I will be most interested to hear whether Peter Denty's car has them as well.
Bryan, is there any chance you could find out if 60-2 has them? They are two threaded bosses on the outside of the tub, beside the engine on the right side. The lower body has two holes to expose them. I tried to post photos and failed, hopefully Andrew will have more luck with them.
Which cars would have been equipped with fuel injection as original?

Rob

[Bryan Miller]

Two answers here,

Rob, pleased to meet you , I am going in the other direction , and keep bumping into your name in the T100 Lola which you ran , rather than the T62.
The Irish lads as you put it seemed very much to like quite a few classy racing cars , from Lola to Lotus to Brabham BT30's to Chevron and March.

Many years ago a chap in Sydney imported 2 Brabhams out of Ireland, one we traced to being the ex. Dr. Roger Willoughby 1100cc supercharged hillclimb car which had started life as , the Radio London car of Liane Engleman.
The other we never really sorted out , but came to the conclusion it was a BT16 , and not as the other car a BT15,
ch.no. F3-25-65.
It is truly amazing the lives some of these cars lead.

Rob.
I telephoned John Masala , who is doing the work on T60-2 , and while he could not go and check, he was pretty sure the car DID NOT HAVE the fuel bomb mounts, this car ran an S.C.A. and the first year I believe they were on carbs. but I stand corrected , and then the 2nd year went to injection, so as new it would not have required mounts.

Re. your tachometer , whilst what Rob has said is perfectly true , please allow for the fact that the car has probably been through many sets of hands , and it may well have been swapped to someone who needed a 12000 unit at some point in time .

Hope this assists.

Bryan.