GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

But Audi and BMW do support an Australian series in Australia. Just ask MPC and SRM.

Also what's a European series that races as a world championship? Is it a European championship or world championship?

Really, put into words what "support" means. Is it the same "support" as the $Millions being put into Supercars.


the Gt3 Blancpain Gt series. That has now formed the Intercontinental Gt challenge

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

But Audi and BMW do support an Australian series in Australia. Just ask MPC and SRM.

Also what's a European series that races as a world championship? Is it a European championship or world championship?

Perfect point. Both MPC and SRM resell the cars and parts to enable gentleman racers of means to go racing, at a tidy profit.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Really, put into words what "support" means. Is it the same "support" as the $Millions being put into Supercars.

Well there is car with red and double blue M stripes over it, two more in grey and red with "Audi Sport" on them, and another two in white and green with "Bentley Sport" on them. Another Porsche is in all yellow with no obvious sponsorship and all factory drivers, suggesting Porsche footing the bill for that one. Make of that what you will.

Then there is Porsche corner, Audi corner and even Bentley corner... Plus significant contribution to the broadcast costs...

Into Supercars:
Ford - none
Nissan - yes millions, but will they be back in 2019? Doubtful.
Holden - yes millions, but for how long?

Not suggesting Supercars should use GT3 rules, just suggesting that Supercars need to consider why is their ROI so poor they cannot attract manufacturers... IF they could deliver $6m annual value for a $3m annual manufacturer investment, I'm sure the manufacturers would be lining up... BUT do the numbers add up!?

It is unsustainable to rely on (say) Nissan to compete just because the CEO likes motor racing, and then why the CEO quits they will be gone.... Supercars should make it so the numbers add up -- surely?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Well there is car with red and double blue M stripes over it, two more in grey and red with "Audi Sport" on them, and another two in white and green with "Bentley Sport" on them. Another Porsche is in all yellow with no obvious sponsorship and all factory drivers, suggesting Porsche footing the bill for that one. Make of that what you will.

Then there is Porsche corner, Audi corner and even Bentley corner... Plus significant contribution to the broadcast costs...

Into Supercars:
Ford - none
Nissan - yes millions, but will they be back in 2019? Doubtful.
Holden - yes millions, but for how long?

Not suggesting Supercars should use GT3 rules, just suggesting that Supercars need to consider why is their ROI so poor they cannot attract manufacturers... IF they could deliver $6m annual value for a $3m annual manufacturer investment, I'm sure the manufacturers would be lining up... BUT do the numbers add up!?

It is unsustainable to rely on (say) Nissan to compete just because the CEO likes motor racing, and then why the CEO quits they will be gone.... Supercars should make it so the numbers add up -- surely?

So just to be clear you are talking about the bathurst 12 hour, part of an international series

DRT was talking about the Australian series.

Hopefully you are able to work out the difference

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

So just to be clear you are talking about the bathurst 12 hour, part of an international series

Supercars call themselves an international series, so why cannot they attract manufacturer support of the same calibre?

They attracted Volvo but couldn't even retain them and then build on that by adding more prestige brands like Jaguar, BMW... They had attracted international races, but couldn't retain them either.

I would like to see the International Supercars series contested by Volvo, (plus Ford, Holden, Jaguar, BMW, Infiniti, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes-Benz, Audi) as much as anybody, and racing in China, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Malaysia, Texas --- it would be fantastic. Yet instead there is just a list of failed Supercars ventures.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by peckstar

So just to be clear you are talking about the bathurst 12 hour, part of an international series



DRT was talking about the Australian series.



Hopefully you are able to work out the difference

The Bathurst 12hr had significant investment from the manufacturers whilst it was a stand alone race before the IGTC came about....

I’d even argue that some manufacturers put in less money then they have done in previous years due to customer efforts becoming stronger representatives.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Supercars call themselves an international series, so why cannot they attract manufacturer support of the same calibre?

They attracted Volvo but couldn't even retain them and then build on that by adding more prestige brands like Jaguar, BMW... They had attracted international races, but couldn't retain them either.

I would like to see the International Supercars series contested by Volvo, (plus Ford, Holden, Jaguar, BMW, Infiniti, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes-Benz, Audi) as much as anybody, and racing in China, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Malaysia, Texas --- it would be fantastic. Yet instead there is just a list of failed Supercars ventures.

so basically, your post was irrelvant, and now you are just going on an attack with irrelvant data to hide the fact. Well played

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by rich07

The Bathurst 12hr had significant investment from the manufacturers whilst it was a stand alone race before the IGTC came about....

I’d even argue that some manufacturers put in less money then they have done in previous years due to customer efforts becoming stronger representatives.

great. doesnt change or add to the discussion, but great

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

so basically, your post was irrelvant, and now you are just going on an attack with irrelvant data to hide the fact. Well played

How is Supercars legacy of failure with regards to COTF new manufactures and international races irrelevant? It is at the very core of the International Supercars series predicament of dwindling manufacturer support!

International races would increase the ROI for manufacturers, and make Supercars racing more attractive... given that the decision to support Supercars are often made internationally and are often no-longer Australia (or NZ) centric...

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

How is Supercars legacy of failure with regards to COTF new manufactures and international races irrelevant? It is at the very core of the International Supercars series predicament of dwindling manufacturer support!

International races would increase the ROI for manufacturers, and make Supercars racing more attractive... given that the decision to support Supercars are often made internationally and are often no-longer Australia (or NZ) centric...

sorry, it like listening to the 12 coverage, you seem to be trying to make some point, but im not sure what it is or the relevance to what we are talking about.

you are talking about a series that has had manufacturer support for 20+ years

Are you just having a dig at supercars?

[rich07]

Originally Posted by peckstar

great. doesnt change or add to the discussion, but great

Thanks for your words of wisdom but your opinion on my posts is irrelevant.

There’s some wise posters on this forum who are able to debate knowledgeably about where the series should head but you’re certainly not one of them.

I know this post will be deleted but since I’ve already screen capped it that’s irrelevant too

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by rich07

Thanks for your words of wisdom but your opinion on my posts is irrelevant.

There’s some wise posters on this forum who are able to debate knowledgeably about where the series should head but you’re certainly not one of them.

I know this post will be deleted but since I’ve already screen capped it that’s irrelevant too

talking about history of a once a year race that has now changed is not debating knowledgeably. Its throwing in an stawman that is irrelevant.

but on that subject, most of my suggestions regarding improvements to the 12 hour have happened, but the so called "knowledgeable" posters on here argued against them constantly. Your opinion on knowledgeable would thus appear to be incorrect.

[Axeman444]

Nostradamus was always deemed correct also, by people who could manipulate his sweeping generalisations to their opinion/agenda

[Umai Naa]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over. When drivers, teams, sponsors, and manufacturers are no longer making long-term commitments to the sport, changes need to be made.

Manufacturers are committed to GT3, GT4, and now TCR, because they are based around business strategies that do actually offer a return on investment, on a much larger scale. They're all based on production cars, so the manufacturer takes their slice of selling the car itself, and by default, wherever the car goes, it'll still carry brand recognition.

The constructor does the design work, the R&D the assembly, the technical and parts support, and amortises the cost of that over the numerous cars they sell to the national agents around the world.

The national agents sell the cars direct to the customer, whilst also offering technical and parts support, and again taking their slice.

The customer buys a car that can be raced anywhere in the world, in any number of championships. The car holds it's resale value, parts can be bought either from the national agent, or direct from the mothership for many years to come. They don't have to worry about the ongoing costs of development, or being left with a dead duck if the series falls over. If they want to put this year's updates on it, they can. If the series promotor leaves town, they can stick the car on Racecars Direct, and ship it off to some other part of the world. The long-term running costs are pretty cheap, and for a sprint round, you could get away with running it with a crew of less than 5 part-timers.

Plug-and-play race cars, on globalised rulesets are the way forward, if professional motorsport wants to be anywhere near sustainable.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Nostradamus was always deemed correct also, by people who could manipulate his sweeping generalisations to their opinion/agenda

I think my points have been clear and succinct, even to dot point form and reasoning. Not sweeping generalisations which i guess is was what your post just was

[E.B]

This thread was quite interesting.... until it became a b***h slapping tit for tat fest.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by E.B

This thread was quite interesting.... until it became a b***h slapping tit for tat fest.

Agreed. The snide remarks aren't really necessary.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over. When drivers, teams, sponsors, and manufacturers are no longer making long-term commitments to the sport, changes need to be made.

Manufacturers are committed to GT3, GT4, and now TCR, because they are based around business strategies that do actually offer a return on investment, on a much larger scale. They're all based on production cars, so the manufacturer takes their slice of selling the car itself, and by default, wherever the car goes, it'll still carry brand recognition.

Spot on.

There is a open niche for 4-door performance sedans with more performance than GT4 and less than GT3, with rear wheel drive and six/eight cylinders (unlike the front wheel drive and four cylinders of TCR) -- akin to the current product but with manufacturer DNA, rather than generic control chassis that isn't enticing manufacturers.

Supercars ought to get at it, and slot their regulations into this gap.
Once it is establshed Supercars could export this set of regulations around the world?

If they play it right, the likes of Tickford and 888 could be filling 50 orders per year for export to compatible series around the globe! It would make an Aussie proud.

It might be seen (in the short term) as a retrograde step to go to production-based Giulia, Stiger or Lexus IS bodyshells and then apply BOP to the resultant racecars, but it might be just what is needed? An actual Stinger twin-turbo or Giulia twin-turbo, with a lightly tuned production engine, and a suitable Hewland or Holinger sequential box behind it, might be the ticket to entice manufacturers?

With BOP they would be ensured both:

1) A product that is relevant to their road-going product.
2) That they will be competitive.

For engineering firms like Tickford and 888:

1) Large source of revenue from vehicles and spares.
2) Thriving business.

For competitors:

1) A capped purchase and spares price.
2) A set homologation period (say 5 years) where they know the car will be eligible and competitive... No expensive development costs involved.

Sounds attractive?

[mayhem]

Isnt that a MARC II?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Spot on.

There is a open niche for 4-door performance sedans with more performance than GT4 and less than GT3, with rear wheel drive and six/eight cylinders (unlike the front wheel drive and four cylinders of TCR) -- akin to the current product but with manufacturer DNA, rather than generic control chassis that isn't enticing manufacturers.

Supercars ought to get at it, and slot their regulations into this gap.
Once it is establshed Supercars could export this set of regulations around the world?

If they play it right, the likes of Tickford and 888 could be filling 50 orders per year for export to compatible series around the globe! It would make an Aussie proud.

It might be seen (in the short term) as a retrograde step to go to production-based Giulia, Stiger or Lexus IS bodyshells and then apply BOP to the resultant racecars, but it might be just what is needed? An actual Stinger twin-turbo or Giulia twin-turbo, with a lightly tuned production engine, and a suitable Hewland or Holinger sequential box behind it, might be the ticket to entice manufacturers?

IS there a niche though? Therotically yes, But in practise who is crying out for that category. DTM (and their maufcaturers) for instance have just moved away from it.

USA has NASCAR, but who else outside Australia is looking for that category?

europe, in my observation, have tended to have small 4 cyclinder racing, where as in Australia we have preferred thew larger sedans, Which we no longer make.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Isnt that a MARC II?

No a Marc II is still a generic spaceframe car, like a COTF Supercar.

The notion of a generic spaceframe strongly deters many manufacturers, who would prefer to have a racecar with the "DNA" of the roadcar and then have it balance-of-performanced as required.

"IS there a niche though? Therotically yes, But in practise who is crying out for that category. DTM (and their maufcaturers) for instance have just moved away from it.

USA has NASCAR, but who else outside Australia is looking for that category?"

The key would be to drop Ford and Holden, and focus on prestige marques who (unlike Ford or Holden) actually sell performance sedans. Especially those who do not current produce a GT3 racer such as Alfa Romeo.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

the Gt3 Blancpain Gt series. That has now formed the Intercontinental Gt challenge

The Intercontinental GT Challenge was not formed out of the the Blancpain Endurance Series, it's been running for getting onto 10 years now for GT3 cars and will do so again in 2018.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

The Intercontinental GT Challenge was not formed out of the the Blancpain Endurance Series, it's been running for getting onto 10 years now for GT3 cars and will do so again in 2018.

great, please quote in context, but anyway we have all moved on

but if we are going to be picky then NO! the Intercontinental GT Challenge has not be running for ten years.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

great, please quote in context, but anyway we have all moved on

You were saying that the IGTC was a European Championship being a World Championship.... given that only 1 event in Europe has ever been a part of the IGTC, how is that so?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

You were saying that the IGTC was a European Championship being a World Championship.... given that only 1 event in Europe has ever been a part of the IGTC, how is that so?

Not sure why you keep saying things ive never said. It was never a european championship, read the events that have made it up.

Move on, because the rest of us have