Points per 6 hour?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I dont think any part of lemans is boring the way it is currently...it lemans afterall....but you have to ask yourself is their a way to improve.....Whats with the complacency you guys? "why change things for the sake of change" its not for the sake of change its for the sake of improvement.....

And dont be so literal in my point scheme that i suggested......i mearly said that to guide the discussion....So no the points dont become insignificant if the ACO changes the point schematic

this thread would be alot more constructive if people actually proposed ideas about something that does have merit.....No one can deny that its not a good idea....anyhting that encourages more hard racing is good for a series...see what DRS and pirelli have done for f1....sure the DRS is a gimmick but hey.....

if you break on the 384/396 lap your sentenced to the ultimate punishment of failure and you deserve absolutely nothing....thats the vibe you guys are putting off.....am i right? should teams who have spent so much to do Lemans get absolutely nothing? teams are like dogs...you give them a reward and they keep coming back...why do you think the gt-am class makes so much sense...Thank god for Psych 101....humans are feeble creatures...fortunately you can get them to do pretty much anything with a bit of knowledge of psychology.

Le Mans is the race we all love. If you love it, why change it? It's one of the rare races these days where the racing is pretty straightforward. There isn't a lot of gimmicks.

I guarantee you that the drivers are pushing hard. Sometimes they are pushing too hard now. We see that with the drivers not respecting the drivers in the other classes. I realize that the difficulty of the race does not translate well onto TV, but we all know what is going on. The last thing we need to do is to try to change things to make the race a "Made for TV" drama. NASCAR has tried this, what has it done for them? Even more to the point, Indycar has done it and the series has (IMO) become a total joke. It seems that even F1 has fallen for it. Le Mans has avoided this and I would like to see that continue! I realize there is a lure to try to pull in new audiences, but the risk in changing the rules is that the core audience will become disinterested. The 24 hours is a race that requires a lot of commitment on the part of the viewer. Risking the core audience is a major risk. I know it might be tempting to make a tiny change here or there and say "what difference is one tiny gimmick going to do," but they add up. Again, look at Indycar right now.

If you break late, well, too bad! There is a posted race distance. You have to make it that far. Sometimes it is tough luck, but that's racing! Sometimes races are remembered for their tough luck losers more than their winners. Maybe this isn't so often the case at Le Mans, but it is quite true at Indianapolis. The fellow that crashed this year is a case of that. Past events like the "Andretti luck" in 1987 and 1992, the failures of the turbines to deliver in the late 60s, and the hard luck tale of Ralph DePalma at the 1912 Indianapolis 500 is legendary amongst American racing lore. Anyway, Le Mans is a big race. It is important to many personally and economically. I don't think Le Mans has to try too hard with gimmicks to get participants.

As far as changes that can be made to spice things up, I'm really intrigued about the proposal to open up the regulations in exchange for there being a fairly aggressive fuel limit. Let's see what these guys can come up with to try to come out on top. I know not everyone is in favor of a consumption formula, so there is some room for debate there I think.

Maybe in terms of change, perhaps if there isn't a consumption formula (or at least in the years before the consumption formula starts), perhaps the Green X Challenge should be communicated better or something. It's an interesting idea (promoting less consumption has long been part of Le Mans) and I realize the formula may not be able to be simplified, but I don't think it is promoted very well. Maybe winning the Green X Challenge can become more meaningful. I realize the Green X Challenge isn't the most exciting thing in the world, but it is an interesting competition.

As far as points go, maybe the debate should be whether Le Mans should be a points-paying event in the first place. Anyway, it's odd that the two Le Mans Series do not have Le Mans as part of the championship, but yet a series that does not have Le Mans in the title does!

[gregtummer]

I think in most cases, the guys are already racing pretty hard at Le Mans. Gone are the days where you cruise around and wait for everyone to break down.

Also, what if a car has a 2 lap advantage on the rest of the class? Your 6 Hour points thing won't encourage anyone to race harder, because the pursuers will already be going hard and the first place car will just be looking to protect his 2 lap lead.

Then in the situation where the competition is close, say a half-minute difference, the leader and 2nd place will go hard anyways, because the leader will be looking to get their competition behind a different safety car queue if the full course caution should come out. This happened at the start of the 2010 race. The Peugeots raced hard, got an early caution, and got the Audis trapped behind another safety car.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AGD

Le Mans is the race we all love. If you love it, why change it? It's one of the rare races these days where the racing is pretty straightforward. There isn't a lot of gimmicks.

I guarantee you that the drivers are pushing hard. Sometimes they are pushing too hard now. We see that with the drivers not respecting the drivers in the other classes. I realize that the difficulty of the race does not translate well onto TV, but we all know what is going on. The last thing we need to do is to try to change things to make the race a "Made for TV" drama. NASCAR has tried this, what has it done for them? Even more to the point, Indycar has done it and the series has (IMO) become a total joke. It seems that even F1 has fallen for it. Le Mans has avoided this and I would like to see that continue! I realize there is a lure to try to pull in new audiences, but the risk in changing the rules is that the core audience will become disinterested. The 24 hours is a race that requires a lot of commitment on the part of the viewer. Risking the core audience is a major risk. I know it might be tempting to make a tiny change here or there and say "what difference is one tiny gimmick going to do," but they add up. Again, look at Indycar right now.

If you break late, well, too bad! There is a posted race distance. You have to make it that far. Sometimes it is tough luck, but that's racing! Sometimes races are remembered for their tough luck losers more than their winners. Maybe this isn't so often the case at Le Mans, but it is quite true at Indianapolis. The fellow that crashed this year is a case of that. Past events like the "Andretti luck" in 1987 and 1992, the failures of the turbines to deliver in the late 60s, and the hard luck tale of Ralph DePalma at the 1912 Indianapolis 500 is legendary amongst American racing lore. Anyway, Le Mans is a big race. It is important to many personally and economically. I don't think Le Mans has to try too hard with gimmicks to get participants.

As far as changes that can be made to spice things up, I'm really intrigued about the proposal to open up the regulations in exchange for there being a fairly aggressive fuel limit. Let's see what these guys can come up with to try to come out on top. I know not everyone is in favor of a consumption formula, so there is some room for debate there I think.

Maybe in terms of change, perhaps if there isn't a consumption formula (or at least in the years before the consumption formula starts), perhaps the Green X Challenge should be communicated better or something. It's an interesting idea (promoting less consumption has long been part of Le Mans) and I realize the formula may not be able to be simplified, but I don't think it is promoted very well. Maybe winning the Green X Challenge can become more meaningful. I realize the Green X Challenge isn't the most exciting thing in the world, but it is an interesting competition.

As far as points go, maybe the debate should be whether Le Mans should be a points-paying event in the first place. Anyway, it's odd that the two Le Mans Series do not have Le Mans as part of the championship, but yet a series that does not have Le Mans in the title does!

This guy gets it. We don't want Le Mans to go the way of NASCAR. Cookie Cutter tracks, with mystery cautions, lucky dogs, spec cars, lots of wrecks, etc, all the name of "excitement".

[MitchZ06]

Le Mans and other endurance races do not need this 6 hour rule, why? The idea of an endurance race is to actually finish the event is it not? So say in a 12 hour race why get points for not finishing if you make it past the 6 hour mark then break down/crash/etc? Give double/triple points to those that finish the race and bad luck for those that don't....

And no,

if you break on the 384/396 lap your sentenced to the ultimate punishment of failure and you deserve absolutely nothing....thats the vibe you guys are putting off.....am i right?

You're not right. They do deserve nothing from not finishing but it's not the ultimate punishment (that'd be something like getting thrown into a volcano from failing). Teams come back year after year anyway, because the lure of even just competing at Le Mans is a huge carrot no matter if you finish or not....

There's 2 types of people in this world, those that understand endurance racing and those that do not. Some people look like they come from the latter rather than the former here.

[Audi Racer]

^^Bow for the Grand Puba. He's knows all. we know nothing.w we're not worthy.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Le Mans and other endurance races do not need this 6 hour rule, why? The idea of an endurance race is to actually finish the event is it not? So say in a 12 hour race why get points for not finishing if you make it past the 6 hour mark then break down/crash/etc? Give double/triple points to those that finish the race and bad luck for those that don't....

And no,

You're not right. They do deserve nothing from not finishing but it's not the ultimate punishment (that'd be something like getting thrown into a volcano from failing). Teams come back year after year anyway, because the lure of even just competing at Le Mans is a huge carrot no matter if you finish or not....

There's 2 types of people in this world, those that understand endurance racing and those that do not. Some people look like they come from the latter rather than the former here.

if andre lotterer gets wrecked on the final lap of the 24 hours of Lemans by a gt car.....he deserves nothing?

ok.

im starting to be more convinced that that your arguments are less and less about spreading knowledge among us forumers and more about just saying the opposite of what im saying....'

the more logical thing to say is "He deserves Points" but, "hes not going to get any"


but what you actually said was "he deserves no points" that the exact opposite of what i said....

it would be alot more constructive if you didnt try to argue with me(we dont have to like each other)..

but dont bludgeon the topic at hand please....just pretend i didnt make this thread..

[MitchZ06]

How petty do you want to be?

If Lotterer crashed out because of a GT car, well tough nuts! You've got to survive the 24 Hours to deserve points IMO. We shouldn't make it like AFL where it has 4 goal posts so even if you miss the middle goal you still get a point....

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

How petty do you want to be?

If Lotterer crashed out because of a GT car, well tough nuts! You've got to survive the 24 Hours to deserve points IMO. We shouldn't make it like AFL where it has 4 goal posts so even if you miss the middle goal you still get a point....

So your telling me if a gt car drove backwards in the pitlane.....and floorred it striaght into Andre Lotterers stationary R18tdi while refueling.....The audi "deserves no points" becasue thats basically what your arguing...

he deserves points....hes just not going to get any.
that is what someone who was being contructive would say.....

maybe next time i will tell someone else to make the thread for me in hopes that youll offer a valid argument.

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

So your telling me if a gt car drove backwards in the pitlane.....and floorred it striaght into Andre Lotterers stationary R18tdi while refueling.....The audi "deserves no points" becasue thats basically what your arguing...

he deserves points....hes just not going to get any.
that is what someone who was being contructive would say.....

maybe next time i will tell someone else to make the thread for me in hopes that youll offer a valid argument.

That's the dumbest argument I've ever seen....Do you think anyone in their right mind is going to drive backwards down the pitlane and deliberately crash into another car?

A valid argument? Anyone else see the irony in that? Talking about cars doing downright stupid things because that's what you think I'm saying is not a valid argument....

It's not basically what I'm arguing either. What I am actually saying is that if he has an accident (whether a GT car runs him off the road from holding it's line or he runs out of talent/awakeness) or the car breaks down before the 24 hours is up he deserves no points. The point of a 24 hour race is to finish the damn thing, not get points for just being there even if you don't finish.

[Audi Racer]

I wonder how the points would work.

i think getting rid of all points is the worst idea because that would mean that theres no incentive to finish if your a big team like Risi did 2 years ago where they packed up and left.....not wanting to put mileage on the car....and intheir defense its a good point.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

The point of a 24 hour race is to finish the damn thing, not get points for just being there even if you don't finish.

Says you.....Now were getting somewhere...you offered a constructive opinion
although it could do without sounding like your trying to shove it down my thoat lol.

[MitchZ06]

Your a trip....

Since when did I say scrap the points? I've said previously give double or even triple points for finishing, just don't give out points for being there at timed intervals....

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

So your telling me if a gt car drove backwards in the pitlane.....and floorred it striaght into Andre Lotterers stationary R18tdi while refueling.....The audi "deserves no points" becasue thats basically what your arguing...

None whatsoever, that's racing.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Your a trip....

Since when did I say scrap the points? I've said previously give double or even triple points for finishing, just don't give out points for being there at timed intervals....

2 things..im confused because i quoted you. and then you said you didnt say that?


also it seems a bit strange to reward the finisher with triple the points. especially considering the scenario where a competitor gets taken out by another competitor..so now Mike Rockefeller is triple screwed?
im not particulary a fan of that concept but i guess someone may adopt it.

whats a trip?can we all be trips?

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

None whatsoever, that's racing.

.......i dont know how to respond....Thats not racing.......GEtting mowed by another competitor in the pitlane going in reverse to intentionally ram you for no reason is Not racing....Thats called Manslaughter and people go to Prison for that........

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Le Mans and other endurance races do not need this 6 hour rule, why? The idea of an endurance race is to actually finish the event is it not? So say in a 12 hour race why get points for not finishing if you make it past the 6 hour mark then break down/crash/etc? Give double/triple points to those that finish the race and bad luck for those that don't....

Quoted myself to ease your confusion.

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

.......i dont know how to respond....Thats not racing.......GEtting mowed by another competitor in the pitlane going in reverse to intentionally ram you for no reason is Not racing....Thats called Manslaughter and people go to Prison for that........

What the hell are you on about? I know how to respond to that statement, yeah that's how it should be. Going to prison because it's manslaughter? He's talking about it as a racing incident, not whatever the hell you're going on about.

[Audi Racer]

^^are you always this angry? Buy some candy....


Anyway back to thread...So collectively what i take from the thread is that no 6 hour points(not even neccesasrily 6 hour points(im reffering to a concept)....and that no one deserves anything no matter how far they've come unless they finish.

doesnt mean i change my stance

[MitchZ06]

I'm not angry, I'm just fed up with idiots on the internet being so bloody confusing.

And yes, that's the general consensus. You only get points if you finish, there's the incentive to race.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I'm not angry, I'm just fed up with idiots on the internet being so bloody confusing.

And yes, that's the general consensus. You only get points if you finish, there's the incentive to race.

you sure do have a way with words. If you want to be fed up with people then feel free to leave the internet scene rather than berate others. youll only earn yourself a ban.

[MitchZ06]

Yup, atleast I can actually use words correctly (there's this thing called grammar, it makes reading posts alot easier if it's used properly).

How bout, instead of giving opinion as fact (as you have in other threads in the past) and providing pretty idiotic points like:

So your telling me if a gt car drove backwards in the pitlane.....and floorred it striaght into Andre Lotterers stationary R18tdi while refueling.....The audi "deserves no points" becasue thats basically what your arguing...

and

.......i dont know how to respond....Thats not racing.......GEtting mowed by another competitor in the pitlane going in reverse to intentionally ram you for no reason is Not racing....Thats called Manslaughter and people go to Prison for that........

Try and come up with something reasonably sensible?

[Audi Racer]

Why am i always slightly terrified whenever i see Mitch Z06 with the last post lol. i always flinch before i click the thread....bad habit i suppose..


do you think if i out a picture of TNT on the thread this page would dissappear.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Yup, atleast I can actually use words correctly (there's this thing called grammar, it makes reading posts alot easier if it's used properly).

How bout, instead of giving opinion as fact (as you have in other threads in the past) and providing pretty idiotic points like:

and


Try and come up with something reasonably sensible?

Attack the post and not the person posting it.

If it continues, you will get some vacation time from here

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by AGD

Sometimes races are remembered for their tough luck losers more than their winners. Maybe this isn't so often the case at Le Mans, but it is quite true at Indianapolis. The fellow that crashed this year is a case of that.

That's very true. The all or nothing nature of Le Mans racing makes it very special and great.

Originally Posted by AGD

I'm really intrigued about the proposal to open up the regulations in exchange for there being a fairly aggressive fuel limit. Let's see what these guys can come up with to try to come out on top. I know not everyone is in favor of a consumption formula, so there is some room for debate there I think.

Maybe in terms of change, perhaps if there isn't a consumption formula (or at least in the years before the consumption formula starts), perhaps the Green X Challenge should be communicated better or something. It's an interesting idea (promoting less consumption has long been part of Le Mans) and I realize the formula may not be able to be simplified, but I don't think it is promoted very well. Maybe winning the Green X Challenge can become more meaningful. I realize the Green X Challenge isn't the most exciting thing in the world, but it is an interesting competition.

I'm more in favour of the first option. Scoring points that nobody knowswhere they come is very confusing. It's much clearer and entertaining to promote efficiency by saying "you have X joules of energy to complete the race, the first to cross the finish line with them wins".