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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:09 (Ref:3519487)   #951
BrentJackson
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Well look at this. IMSA is gonna only be the four chosen one chassis after all.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11475...p2-regulations

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“I don’t see that happening, candidly,” he stated. “It’s not a random choice that we have decided, with complete agreement by the ACO and the FIA, to limit the constructors to four. And we have to be careful of definitions here. Constructors are who we’re looking at to actually build the prototype racecars. Manufacturers are those mainstream brands that we’re all familiar with that would put the drivetrain and potential bodywork on the cars.
“So back to the constructor discussion, we’re going to support the decision to limit those to four, with one – at least – one of those four being North American-based.”
Nice work, IMSA. You've just utterly and completely screwed yourselves. When your prototype field is in tatters, and it will be 2018 or so, you will only have yourselves to blame for supporting this ridiculous, idiotic farce that these new P2 rules are. You are about to screw two American chassis manufacturers out of a considerable amount of work (or run them completely out of the sport) so that Oreca and Onroak can make more money. You are about to make marketing your sport to the rest of America effectively impossible and alienate a very large number of your existing fans, which will make your already hideous cost/benefit ratio that much worse. And all for what? To keep a connection to Le Mans that maybe a half dozen cars in your field will take advantage of, and where the ACO is gonna neuter your entrants into being also-rans?

Memo to World Challenge: Start an endurance series. Like, now. Because IMSA is about to blow themselves up because they haven't got enough sense to tell the ACO where to shove it.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:29 (Ref:3519494)   #952
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Wow, I didn't think IMSA would take the approach of only allowing a single North American constructor. When they currently have Multimatic, Riley and Coyote involved, that really does seem to be a really strange decision if they haven't consulted with those parties beforehand.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:55 (Ref:3519504)   #953
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Wow, I didn't think IMSA would take the approach of only allowing a single North American constructor. When they currently have Multimatic, Riley and Coyote involved, that really does seem to be a really strange decision if they haven't consulted with those parties beforehand.
They still have the bodywork-crap going on so they can claim to have diversity. And maybe kill LMPC dinosaurs and ask the constructors go to P3.

Anyways, this ACO-spec-honoring makes no sense given that you cannot run those cars anywhere else in the world anyways (expect Le Mans) unless you have the FIA spec engine and chassis. Nonsense.

"Mazda" will have to ditch the ancient Lola and have either Oreca, Oak, Coyote/Riley/Multimatic or the 4th option. HPD is surely done for.

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Old 25 Mar 2015, 20:57 (Ref:3519505)   #954
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Wow, I didn't think IMSA would take the approach of only allowing a single North American constructor. When they currently have Multimatic, Riley and Coyote involved, that really does seem to be a really strange decision if they haven't consulted with those parties beforehand.
Multimatic has 2 elderly designed (to prototypes) chassis on the grid, come the 2017 rules I would bet they would have to design, develop and construct a new chassis. Seems a HUGE investment for a chance at selling 2 to Mazda. Coyote is not a huge seller either, Riley has the majority of the grid. It has been mentioned that the US chassis would likely be from a consortium of the current US builders with each taking the part(s) they are capable of producing. So..... we shall see just how it all comes together once some construction rules are floated on the new chassis.





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Old 25 Mar 2015, 21:01 (Ref:3519508)   #955
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Multimatic has 2 elderly designed (to prototypes) chassis on the grid, come the 2017 rules I would bet they would have to design, develop and construct a new chassis. Seems a HUGE investment for a chance at selling 2 to Mazda. Coyote is not a huge seller either, Riley has the majority of the grid. It has been mentioned that the US chassis would likely be from a consortium of the current US builders with each taking the part(s) they are capable of producing. So..... we shall see just how it all comes together once some construction rules are floated on the new chassis.

L.P.
Actually, there are three full time Coyotes right now (AEX, Visit Florida), one Riley (CGR) and one Dallara (Taylor).
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 21:13 (Ref:3519515)   #956
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Actually, there are three full time Coyotes right now (AEX, Visit Florida), one Riley (CGR) and one Dallara (Taylor).
And which, if any, of those are able to construct a full CF chassis? Which we all knew was coming down the pike!







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Old 25 Mar 2015, 21:32 (Ref:3519521)   #957
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And which, if any, of those are able to construct a full CF chassis? Which we all knew was coming down the pike!
L.P.
Tomorrow? Only Dallara. Within a few months - all of them. Riley already made some noises about wanting a slice of the P3 market and Coyote was thinking out loud about a potential P2 a few months ago. Just a question of hiring the right people and buying the right equipment, seeing how even garagiste-CN-contructors are using CF chassis these days.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 22:23 (Ref:3519540)   #958
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Multimatic has 2 elderly designed (to prototypes) chassis on the grid, come the 2017 rules I would bet they would have to design, develop and construct a new chassis. Seems a HUGE investment for a chance at selling 2 to Mazda. Coyote is not a huge seller either, Riley has the majority of the grid. It has been mentioned that the US chassis would likely be from a consortium of the current US builders with each taking the part(s) they are capable of producing. So..... we shall see just how it all comes together once some construction rules are floated on the new chassis.

L.P.
Horndawg, do you really think that all of the constructors are gonna team up on this when Oreca and Onroak are building on their own? And you expect them to not battle like crazy over a pathetically small market (because Oreca and Onroak will take up most of the market here)? Such an arrangement will not accomplish a damn thing.

Here's what will actually happen: Riley is gonna focus on GT cars and that will end Ganassi's DP program probably after this season, followed by Coyote doing the same thing with GM GT cars. All will also make new chassis for Trans Am cars and NASCAR and the like. This will also shrink the field for next year's prototype class, adding to series existing problems with car count in the top class. And by the end of 2016, the outright rage at the problems that are likely to result will make for loud calls to dump the prototypes altogether.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 22:28 (Ref:3519545)   #959
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Well look at this. IMSA is gonna only be the four chosen one chassis after all.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/11475...p2-regulations



Nice work, IMSA. You've just utterly and completely screwed yourselves. When your prototype field is in tatters, and it will be 2018 or so, you will only have yourselves to blame for supporting this ridiculous, idiotic farce that these new P2 rules are. You are about to screw two American chassis manufacturers out of a considerable amount of work (or run them completely out of the sport) so that Oreca and Onroak can make more money. You are about to make marketing your sport to the rest of America effectively impossible and alienate a very large number of your existing fans, which will make your already hideous cost/benefit ratio that much worse. And all for what? To keep a connection to Le Mans that maybe a half dozen cars in your field will take advantage of, and where the ACO is gonna neuter your entrants into being also-rans?

Memo to World Challenge: Start an endurance series. Like, now. Because IMSA is about to blow themselves up because they haven't got enough sense to tell the ACO where to shove it.
It's highly ironic that, when USCR first came up a year ago everyone was screaming for ACO/Le Mans relevance or else USCR is doomed and now it's the exact opposite (and this time USCR is following their original plan...)

As bad as the DPs were, I'm now going to miss the DPs considering the P2s will be more spec with just "styling ques" where as atleast the DPs had multiple chassis and constructors. I can deal with the fake branding if there is an actual spec that Coyote or Riley have to build their cars to rather than just changing a grill and lights on a P2 and calling it whatever when it's almost literally identical to any other P2
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 22:40 (Ref:3519556)   #960
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I completely agree with you. I'm very disappointed in myself for it, but now I'm more and more wishing IMSA weren't following the ACO's almighty **** up at all.

We now have a choice between WEC/ELMS with a few chassis and spec engines or TUSC with effectively spec chassis (people could theoretically pick any but surely going with the US option will be most logical) and maybe some engine variety (hard to see many others than Chevrolet at the moment though - maybe the WEC spec engine branded as an Audi). And no open tyre choice anywhere.

Or the choice of just ignoring its existence completely, as I currently manage successfully with PC and will with P3 unless some non-Ginettas turn up.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 22:50 (Ref:3519560)   #961
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First off, it won't be that hard to "design" a next-gen P2 spec chassis because about everything will be determined by the ACO-FIA. It's not "clean sheet of paper," it's "Connect the dots and color in the resulting picture any way you like."

Second, Ford was going to GT with Ganassi likely being the team, so Riley not being one of the four won't matter ... Riley can do GT. Dallara can knock out a couple CF tubs in no time, it has tons of experience, as do Oak and Oreca. Mutimatic has been building cars for a long time and I have no doubt they are already tooling up for the 2017-2021 life of the first-gen next-gen ****-2s.

I doubt Riley, which has a couple Starworks, a couple Ganassi, the Fifty-Plus car, and couple oddities floating around at the Rolex, will mind not being part of the business considering most of the Euros will probably by Euro-built cars (think Oak and Oreca will work out some "customer appreciation" deal?) I doubt there will be a difference in price from constructor to constructor—I expect FIA to fix the price, and I expect Oak and Oreca to offer the best deals on replacement/repair parts to their loyal customers.

The TUSC market is likely to be ten to twenty cars and a few replacements over four years (plus lots of bodywork, which will probably come from a partnership with the manufacturers.) The manufacturers (or Manufacturer, as Chevy is the only one likely to stay) might even mandate a specific chassis ... probably not i figure.

If four constructors split the TUSC market, each will get four to six cars over four years—maybe 16 up front for teams a couple spares, and a couple more the next year when 2016 cars are no longer grandfathered, and a few replacements when a car can't be repaired.

I don't see a constructor fighting too hard to get to build two or three chassis at a fixed price point.

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It's highly ironic that, when USCR first came up a year ago everyone was screaming for ACO/Le Mans relevance or else USCR is doomed and now it's the exact opposite (and this time USCR is following their original plan...)
I wonder if the spec motor was a NASACR plan—I kind of doubt it. I'd bet Jim France pushed for a common engine specification, but not a single supplier, but FIA, not needing or wanting factory support in P2, figured a single supplier would be pure profit.

Jim France got out-NASCAR'd by France.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:00 (Ref:3519564)   #962
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I thought Multimatic were doing the Ford GT, not Riley?
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:16 (Ref:3519570)   #963
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I thought Multimatic were doing the Ford GT, not Riley?
They're building the road cars and probably the racecars too. I think he meant that Riley build the Vipers and could use them.
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Old 25 Mar 2015, 23:19 (Ref:3519574)   #964
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TY yes, I should have made that more clear. Riley runs the GTD Vipers already and would probably love to go back to GTLM if it could get the money.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 02:20 (Ref:3519625)   #965
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TY yes, I should have made that more clear. Riley runs the GTD Vipers already and would probably love to go back to GTLM if it could get the money.
Once the GT40 vs. Corvette battle gets hyped in 2015 and goes hot in 2016, I'm thinking that this maybe Riley's backup plan. That would also explain the GTLM Viper entry at Le Mans this year - its running the car to make sure people remember it exists. When IMSA's prototype field goes south in 2016 and 2017, Riley will get FCA to nut up and provide backing, and the GTLM Vipers will return to Le Mans in 2016 and then to IMSA starting with the Six Hours of the Glen. After the probably-pathetic 2017 prototype fields gets reviled by the fans and ignored by the teams owners and marketers, the prototype era in IMSA will close out with a whimper, followed by the vast battle in 2018 between Corvette, Viper and GT40, as well as everyone else in IMSA GTLM....
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 02:50 (Ref:3519632)   #966
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Once the GT40 vs. Corvette battle gets hyped in 2015 and goes hot in 2016, I'm thinking that this maybe Riley's backup plan. That would also explain the GTLM Viper entry at Le Mans this year - its running the car to make sure people remember it exists. When IMSA's prototype field goes south in 2016 and 2017, Riley will get FCA to nut up and provide backing, and the GTLM Vipers will return to Le Mans in 2016 and then to IMSA starting with the Six Hours of the Glen. After the probably-pathetic 2017 prototype fields gets reviled by the fans and ignored by the teams owners and marketers, the prototype era in IMSA will close out with a whimper, followed by the vast battle in 2018 between Corvette, Viper and GT40, as well as everyone else in IMSA GTLM....
Prototypes, in TUSC, are not going away. The DP is proof enough of that!










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Old 26 Mar 2015, 02:51 (Ref:3519633)   #967
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And then, IMSA brought in the DTM-based "Class One" cars to replace prototypes!

Even though it won't happen anytime soon, TUSC going to the GT-only series route might not help it much as they'll have to compete against PWC and the Blancpain Series for attention.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 03:49 (Ref:3519642)   #968
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Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but if the 2017 ACO P2 engine is going to be non production based, will the IMSA P2 engines still be production based? I'm sure we'll find out in time, but just wondering what some of your thoughts are.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 08:46 (Ref:3519684)   #969
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Prototypes, in TUSC, are not going away. The DP is proof enough of that!

L.P.
Once the combination of terrible prototype rules and the GT40 vs. Corvette (and probably vs. Viper) battle kicks their elements in, that will change. Who's gonna care about these POS prototypes against that? More to the point, as the factories in that class are the series biggest spenders, do you think that they won't want that? And for that matter the chassis builders about to be kicked out of prototype racing but who will probably find ways into the GT categories?

If prototypes do survive, it will be in the form of the Class One cars MagVanisher mentioned, more silhouette GT than prototype. And that would be fine with me. These P2 rules, however, are not fine. The response from fans of this sport has pretty much been utter horror from all involved, which is why Atherton's tone about how limiting the builders will allow them to thrive is such utter BS its laughable. This is gonna kill the LMP2 category, and if IMSA has]d any common sense they'd get away from this. But it appears that the braintrust there has every intention of repeating all of the same bloody mistakes that the ALMS made, so here we go into the mess once more, at least until the privateers all go "to heck with this" and either bail on IMSA entirely or switch to GTLM and GTD cars.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 10:17 (Ref:3519712)   #970
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How exactly do you think Corvette vs Ford is gonna be any more ratings effective than Corvette vs Viper was? It's not gonna be a magical crowd magnet alone.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 11:19 (Ref:3519733)   #971
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How exactly do you think Corvette vs Ford is gonna be any more ratings effective than Corvette vs Viper was? It's not gonna be a magical crowd magnet alone.
I think Ford versus Chevy is a more powerful rivalry than Corvette versus SRT? Oh no, it's Dodge? Not sure sports car fans are that into it, but it is an easier sell for magazine and TV ads to hopefully attract some future fans.

Also, with Chevy being the only manufacturer, the company might decide that racing itself is no longer the best way to promote the company--but I think it more likely that the GM PR team will flood the airwaves with ads about "Chevrolet Power has won every singly Tudor series race this season," not mentioning that the Chevy V8 is practically mandatory in the P-class.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 13:07 (Ref:3519794)   #972
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If prototypes do survive, it will be in the form of the Class One cars MagVanisher mentioned, more silhouette GT than prototype. And that would be fine with me.
Putting manufacturer specific bodywork on P2 tubs to include styling cues of said manufacturer is pretty similar to what the Class One cars are, so I'm not sure why you dislike having the P2 version of this?


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Also, with Chevy being the only manufacturer, the company might decide that racing itself is no longer the best way to promote the company--but I think it more likely that the GM PR team will flood the airwaves with ads about "Chevrolet Power has won every singly Tudor series race this season," not mentioning that the Chevy V8 is practically mandatory in the P-class.
I think at least Mazda will put together some type of bodykit for a proto to battle the Chevy's. Perhaps Ford will still be interested but it's hard to say. Everything at HPD is up in the air right now, so I'm not counting on them. I also believe there will be teams running the "stock P2's" without bodykits.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 14:30 (Ref:3519871)   #973
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I think Ford versus Chevy is a more powerful rivalry than Corvette versus SRT? Oh no, it's Dodge? Not sure sports car fans are that into it, but it is an easier sell for magazine and TV ads to hopefully attract some future fans.

Also, with Chevy being the only manufacturer, the company might decide that racing itself is no longer the best way to promote the company--but I think it more likely that the GM PR team will flood the airwaves with ads about "Chevrolet Power has won every singly Tudor series race this season," not mentioning that the Chevy V8 is practically mandatory in the P-class.
Don't forget that Ford has had the ecoboost V6 on the stove as a P2 engine for some time. Also, it may well be that the Chevy V8 will be too big for the new P2 - the spec euro engine is being bandied about as a 4 liter, one would expect the US rules to keep within range of the ACO. For US P2 it would be reasonable for HPD to be an engine supplier even if not a chassis supplier - they seem happy to have their engine in Ligiers.

OTOH, a really good factory GT war could resonate well in the US. I would prefer it to a lame P series.
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 14:38 (Ref:3519880)   #974
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I'm sure GM will demand a Corvette body if one wants a GM engine in the back.

Mazda might stick around but only for their 'works' program, cannot see anyone else wanting to run their vacuum cleaner engine.

If PC is retained as a separate chassis configuration (current cars or new LMP3s) I don't expect many new P cars in 2017/beyond, maybe a handful of 'Corvettes' + couple of Mazda + couple of stock bodied P2s, 10 or so in total, 12 would be a lot.

Suddenly the life span of the DPs and spec Orecas might be extended even further!
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Old 26 Mar 2015, 15:34 (Ref:3519901)   #975
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You know I'm wondering, since the new selected four chassis manufacturers are gonna be using spec engine outside the States, will they actually bother constructing the car so that it allows more engines than just the standardized one? I mean obviously the 'US manufacturer' as in Riley/Coyote/Multimatic is gonna do it, but the others? Someone like Oreca might just say **** it and optimize it for one now that there is no need for anything else. I mean, look at their R-One and the amount of work required for modding it.

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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I think Ford versus Chevy is a more powerful rivalry than Corvette versus SRT? Oh no, it's Dodge? Not sure sports car fans are that into it, but it is an easier sell for magazine and TV ads to hopefully attract some future fans
Maybe Robertsons should have attempted to demand more marketizing from the PR department for their Doran Ford...

Also in 2010, Corvette could've technically have the same kind of competition in GT1 if they had stayed and gone against the privateer Matech & VDS Ford GTs.
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