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Old 28 Mar 2016, 18:31 (Ref:3628118)   #26
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Originally Posted by Coach Ep View Post
If the new Riley P3 finally sees the light, proves to be competitive against the Ligier armada and can be produced in rather large numbers (10+ p/yr.), I'm sure it'll be a candidate to be the new spec PC car. All it would need is a (Oreca?) spec engine with more power to at least equal the speed of the current car, hopefully it'll be a tad faster.
Anything (prototype) that meets the safety, endurance and performance envelopes will be considered as long as it can also be produced at the price point IMSA establishes for the next PC chassis. I am positive it will be shopped around.





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Old 28 Mar 2016, 21:01 (Ref:3628182)   #27
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Those V8s, they kind you see in NASCAR, ARCA, USAC, WoO, and a variety of lower level racing series all use this these type of engines. So there may maybe a market for these cars to tap.
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Old 29 Mar 2016, 00:27 (Ref:3628229)   #28
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Not sure more downforce is the way to go for amateurs...

Downforce requires speed to work, which requires pushing harder... Can all of the amateurs we have push hard enough reliably to really take full advantage of more aero? We have heard that some of the amateurs have difficulty warming up the tires quick enough because they don't push hard enough. More significantly though I think, it would make them more sensitive to traffic disrupting their aero which is definitely not good for amateurs.

More aero from adding winglets and stuff means more bits of carbon fiber that can break, and broken bits off the car have a big influence on how it handles, either making it more difficult to drive or meaning the team needs come in to replace the nose or whatever. That either means that the on-track performance and action gets worse, or that the teams need more spares which means money. The current PCs are pretty tough, how many times have we seen them off the track and into tires or making light contact with the wall and be able to keep going with no noticeable performance loss? I'm not sure we need to make them more fragile.
Fair points, I grant that. The reason I went the way of adding more downforce is that I'm trying to avoid the goofups that seem to happen fairly frequently with these cars, and since Aero does not depend of warm or cold tires, I just thought that might be a way to go forward. Maybe softer tires that warm up more quickly? I'm wanting to keep the cars but reduce the number of accidents.

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Developing 3 new engines to put in the cars requires someone to spend money, and while it's easy to make any of those motors put out 550hp reliably on the street, making them into endurance racing motors is another matter and wouldn't necessarily be so easy... Particularly if they wanted to try to match the excellent service life the Katech units used to have (not sure if they still do after being bumped up).

While I know you were only mentioning it in passing, opening it up to other P2 open top chassis would get the class away from being spec, which means more money to buy what is perceived as the best package. Adding in new engines and different chassis means that teams either need to spend the money to buy what is best, or leaves it down to BoP, both things that all of the current teams do not have to/want to deal with.

If you are going to push faster, non-spec cars on them where they will have to spend more money to upgrade/buy the best and start relying on BoP, why not push them towards GTD where amateur drivers wouldn't be overstepping their limits and where they can put something on the grid that people might actually care about?

If they are going to do away with the class (and I think they should) they need to give the teams time to prepare. IMSA can bring back a special trophy and a spot next to the P podium for the highest finishing pro/am team to stand on during the ceremony but not a whole class to themselves. They have a choice of moving up to P if they want to stay in prototypes, or moving to GTD if they want to stay in a pro/am class. Of course, IMSA should do whatever it can to accommodate the PC teams during the transition, whether it be helping them out with communication with manufacturers to purchase their new cars, reduced entry fees, or anything that can help.

I don't want the series to lose the teams or worse yet have any of the teams fold, but at the same time it has become a class that adds basically nothing positive to the show (thanks to the starting driver rule we don't even get good qualifying sessions anymore) and is just a home to ride-selling teams that often put people in their cars that aren't ready for prototype racing. It has failed as a ladder, and it often hurts the on-track product with needless cautions, and they don't need the show to suffer.

PC has had a good long run, but it's got to end at some point. I'd like to see the participating teams take that as a win and come into a new era with the rest of the field.
I can see your points, but moving to any other class in the field for those teams means new cars at a half million bucks a pop, plus all of the spares and equipment. Any way you go, you're hurting the teams. There is no way around it aside from keeping the current cars. I would prefer they go too, really, but I'm not blind to the fact that IMSA needs every single bit of support they can possibly get, and I want the ability for the PC class to mean something beyond rolling chicanes and easy class wins for Core Autosport. But forcing the teams to replace all of the cars is going to see most of them either out of the series or out of the sport at this point, which is a really big problem. There is no money out there to do that, and anybody looking to move classes probably did so with the GT3 introduction.

You are correct in pointing out that it was a passing comment about the other P2s, but that may be an option. P3 is not happening now, I think we can all see that, particularly since Riley is gonna have their hands full with the P2s, particularly since Multimatic is also very, very busy. The car hasn't finished the design spec yet and unless there are few orders for the P2 car (which, let's be honest, is highly unlikely), the earliest the P3 car will be ready for testing is late 2017, which means not enough for the grid in 2018 and pushes using it as a replacement back to 2019. (Eeeeep.) The open-top P2 idea was put forwards because there is lots of Orecas and Gibsons and Morgans and the like out there. If one is going to replace those cars anywhere near now it needs to be a chassis which is ready now and produced by somebody who can make lots of them now, preferably somebody not making a P2 car. I don't want to be calling Onroak if at all possible, but with Ginetta all but out of the P3 game, ADESS proving to be problematic and Riley and Dome yet to hit the track, if we go P3 anytime soon we're handing yet another market to Onroak, which IMO at this point should be avoided like the plague. (Gibson, maybe? Is there enough Gibson 015S chassis out there to make this work?)

The different engines was an attempt at that. The reason I figured it could work is that Chrysler is really promoting their Hemi engines, the LT1 is already in use the Corvette C7.R and as your correctly pointed out the Ford Coyote is already being used in Conti. They will all make 550 horsepower easily and without too much in the way of stress, particularly since the same internals on the Corvette ZR1 (650 hp) and on the Hellcat Dodges (707 hp) make considerably more power. Chrysler could fairly cheaply I suspect make a Hemi for a PC category, and Ford's already halfway there with the Voodoo version of the Coyote and GM with the C7.R's powerplant. Low-stressed, torquey, loud-roaring Detroit V8s can, when sorted properly (and Katech has shown this with the LS3) run absolutely forever without breaking. Giving the class a choice of engines gives it more competition than there would otherwise be, which makes it worth more, and since you'd only have to do BoP infrequently, no need for lots of troubles with major changes to the cars.
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Old 29 Mar 2016, 00:59 (Ref:3628239)   #29
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You are correct in pointing out that it was a passing comment about the other P2s, but that may be an option. P3 is not happening now, I think we can all see that, particularly since Riley is gonna have their hands full with the P2s, particularly since Multimatic is also very, very busy. The car hasn't finished the design spec yet and unless there are few orders for the P2 car (which, let's be honest, is highly unlikely), the earliest the P3 car will be ready for testing is late 2017, which means not enough for the grid in 2018 and pushes using it as a replacement back to 2019. (Eeeeep.)
I understand your point about Riley being too busy with the P2 cars to make the P3's, but I think Ave is actually constructing the P3 and invested in some composite making equipment to carry on the task. But do we know where the P2 car is being produced? Is the tub being made at Riley while the car assembled at Multimatic, or vice a versa? We are talking about small numbers of P2 cars anyways, so I think they will be up to the task.
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Old 29 Mar 2016, 01:13 (Ref:3628242)   #30
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I don't think the 5.5L in the C7Rs are LT1 based, I think they are still the same 5.5L that the C6R GT2/E cars used. I can't remember off-hand what it's called, LS.R or something?

While an old P2 open top chassis might be fairly cheap, surely an older GT3 car could be had for a reasonable price too. This is assuming that IMSA would be okay with an older GT3 car running or having a chance at winning, as BMW for example might not want to see an old Z4 beat out their new M6, so there could be some political stuff involved. Flying Lizard ran the older gen R8 though, but it was fairly anonymous both times.

It is a tough position to put the teams in, but upgrading cars is just part of racing. DP teams had to do it with the new aero, the whole P field will have to do it with DPi, lots of GTD teams had to do it when they moved to the GT3 regs.

There was talk of CORE moving to P2 a few years ago, and we know they aren't short on money. PR1 Mathiasen also supposedly nearly switched to a P2 this season. We already know Starworks is going to P class next year with the Riley. That leaves BAR1, JDC Miller, and Performance Tech that would likely need more consideration than the others, and I'm not sure how well they are off.

IMSA does need to think of the teams, but they also need to think of what is best for the product they put out as that is what will help gain them fans and grow the sport, and in turn help the teams find sponsorship. I'm not saying that it's only PC is holding things back or that they are ruining the show or anything, but IMSA has more to consider than just what these teams want. If left up to the teams, they would probably still be running these same cars 10 years from now so that they don't have to spend any more than the bare minimum.
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Old 29 Mar 2016, 02:26 (Ref:3628250)   #31
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I don't think the 5.5L in the C7Rs are LT1 based, I think they are still the same 5.5L that the C6R GT2/E cars used. I can't remember off-hand what it's called, LS.R or something?
LS5.R. As best I can tell, it's derived more from the LS3(the engine that the PC cars use) than the roadcar's engine.
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Old 1 May 2016, 03:44 (Ref:3637438)   #32
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There could be life for the LMP3 chassis in IMSA yet.... as the PC replacement chassis that would become the top class of the CTSCC.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...ation-for-2018






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Old 1 May 2016, 03:52 (Ref:3637439)   #33
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Originally Posted by HORNDAWG View Post
There could be life for the LMP3 chassis in IMSA yet.... as the PC replacement chassis that would become the top class of the CTSCC.

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...ation-for-2018






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I think that is a good spot for P3's in North America
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Old 1 May 2016, 15:04 (Ref:3637550)   #34
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I hope I am understanding this right ! So from 2018 moving forward the " CONTI " series will become PC , LMP3 , and then some Amalgamation of a Combined ST& GS Class ?

Some reasons being cited :
Reduction of total number of cars in the series due to space limitations ?
Consistent number of cars at other NON NAEC events ?

I have to WONDER how much INFLUENCE GM had in leaning in that direction ?
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Old 1 May 2016, 18:35 (Ref:3637598)   #35
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I have to WONDER how much INFLUENCE GM had in leaning in that direction ?
Almost none given that PC will be dead.
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Old 2 May 2016, 01:07 (Ref:3637712)   #36
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I hope I am understanding this right ! So from 2018 moving forward the " CONTI " series will become PC , LMP3 , and then some Amalgamation of a Combined ST& GS Class ?

Some reasons being cited :
Reduction of total number of cars in the series due to space limitations ?
Consistent number of cars at other NON NAEC events ?

I have to WONDER how much INFLUENCE GM had in leaning in that direction ?
No you are not understanding it right. 2018 might see CTSCC with PC (with the LMP3 being the new chassis used for PC, unknown yet) as it's top class then GS and ST classes.







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Old 2 May 2016, 03:13 (Ref:3637722)   #37
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OK I am sorry for misunderstanding that part .

So it will be LMP 3 chasis only with a yet to be determined motor ?

Also yet to be determined bodywork ?

Which raises the question WHERE is IMSA Lites class headed ?

As I was understanding it IMSA wanted the PC /LMP3 class to be the feeder series to P2 / DPI class ?
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Old 2 May 2016, 03:57 (Ref:3637726)   #38
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OK I am sorry for misunderstanding that part .

So it will be LMP 3 chasis only with a yet to be determined motor ?

Also yet to be determined bodywork ?
It would almost be guaranteed to be the same engine and bodywork package as is run in Europe. Being a lower-tier class it will not be worth it to rebrand it.

They'll use the same engine as the current PC cars IF there is a legitimate indication that the P3 engines aren't up to the task(given that they would be running shorter races in Conti than they do in Europe, this would not be a concern if P3 was made a Conti class). Otherwise for the sake of simplicity they will likely adopt the class unaltered, save perhaps for a smaller inlet restrictor to keep the cars at a more reasonable speed for Conti.

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Which raises the question WHERE is IMSA Lites class headed ?

As I was understanding it IMSA wanted the PC /LMP3 class to be the feeder series to P2 / DPI class ?
The problem with the idea of P3 in IMSA Lites is a simple matter of cost. The LMP3 cost cap is in excess of $200,000, though I'm told the cars are selling for a little under 200K.

The Elan DP02 is considerably cheaper(and, being part of a glorified club series, can remain stagnant for much longer, though they really SHOULD revamp the series), as is the newer Elan NP01(still waiting for reliable lap time info comparing the two cars), so LMP3 REALLY isn't a good idea for Prototype Lites.

P Lites ought to just adopt the SCCA P1 and P2 design regulations, but I doubt IMSA would be willing to do so.
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Old 3 May 2016, 07:55 (Ref:3638049)   #39
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No you are not understanding it right. 2018 might see CTSCC with PC (with the LMP3 being the new chassis used for PC, unknown yet) as it's top class then GS and ST classes.

L.P.
Which would be unbelievably stupid and won't resolve a thing with regards to the problems the CTSCC faces. GS has poor car counts due to costs being too high, so you reduce their exposure by adding another class above them?

IMSA just needs to either put the LMP3 cars with IMSA Lites or forget about them. Wrecking the Conti Series because IMSA team owners don't want to race them in the WeatherTech Series is moronic.
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Old 3 May 2016, 08:55 (Ref:3638065)   #40
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Which would be unbelievably stupid and won't resolve a thing with regards to the problems the CTSCC faces. GS has poor car counts due to costs being too high, so you reduce their exposure by adding another class above them?

IMSA just needs to either put the LMP3 cars with IMSA Lites or forget about them. Wrecking the Conti Series because IMSA team owners don't want to race them in the WeatherTech Series is moronic.
Yes, let's go ahead and do the same thing to Prototype Lites that you say would kill Conti. Brilliant logic, good sir.

Think about it - if LMP3 doesn't make sense in Conti due to cost, how does it make any more sense in P Lites? LMP3 cars are considerably more expensive than what's currently being run in Lites as well.
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Old 4 May 2016, 02:52 (Ref:3638318)   #41
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Yes, let's go ahead and do the same thing to Prototype Lites that you say would kill Conti. Brilliant logic, good sir.

Think about it - if LMP3 doesn't make sense in Conti due to cost, how does it make any more sense in P Lites? LMP3 cars are considerably more expensive than what's currently being run in Lites as well.
Then don't run them in IMSA. The team owners in the WeatherTech series have stated more than a little categorically that they have no interest in them, that's the sole reason why they are being considered for Conti, because the braintrust at IMSA still is desperate to have all of the ACO's classes in their series. (BTW, I agree with your point about them being too costly for Lites, I really don't think they have any place in IMSA.)

Killing Conti to appease the ACO is even more foolish than putting those cars in WeatherTech.
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Old 4 May 2016, 03:00 (Ref:3638319)   #42
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The we must have them because they have them mentality is quite annoying.

Lmp3 should replace PC as the Jr. Proto or do nothing with them at all.
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Old 4 May 2016, 06:10 (Ref:3638342)   #43
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Have to wonder how differently the American market would view LMP3 cars if they had tested a current Ligier instead of last year's Ginetta. They should be quick enough to replace PC now.
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Old 4 May 2016, 09:51 (Ref:3638403)   #44
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Killing Conti to appease the ACO is even more foolish than putting those cars in WeatherTech.
It has nothing to do with pleasing the ACO. Frankly, based on what I've heard from meetings, IMSA doesn't give ANY bleeps about the ACO beyond marketing.

It's all about the PC team owners who have no interest in running a P class car due to cost, but don't want to run a GT program, either(particularly the rather crowded GTD).
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Old 8 May 2016, 16:52 (Ref:3640152)   #45
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A Ligier JSP3 win the Sunset 500 in Homestead Miami.
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/une...ent-americain/
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Old 9 May 2016, 11:17 (Ref:3640305)   #46
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Sunset 500???

DP on background???
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Old 9 May 2016, 13:16 (Ref:3640331)   #47
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A Ligier JSP3 win the Sunset 500 in Homestead Miami.
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/une...ent-americain/
I have no idea what that race is, first I've heard of it.
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Old 9 May 2016, 13:25 (Ref:3640335)   #48
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Looks like its just a local Florida club serie basicly. Only the Ligier and the DP of interest in the entry list, also a Praga in there, other then that the usual bunch of Porsches and BMWs.
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Old 9 May 2016, 14:15 (Ref:3640351)   #49
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This is pretty much a south Florida ORG called FARA .

The slogan " We provide a Playground for your ride " is Interesting !

Though there seems to be a wider selection of vehicles than I had guessed .

Basicly if it is SAFE Bring it and they will find a class for you or RENT a RIDE .!!

Anybody got an LMP1 sitting around I could BORROW for a WEEK-END ?
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Old 9 May 2016, 15:00 (Ref:3640364)   #50
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It would almost be guaranteed to be the same engine and bodywork package as is run in Europe. Being a lower-tier class it will not be worth it to rebrand it.

They'll use the same engine as the current PC cars IF there is a legitimate indication that the P3 engines aren't up to the task(given that they would be running shorter races in Conti than they do in Europe, this would not be a concern if P3 was made a Conti class). Otherwise for the sake of simplicity they will likely adopt the class unaltered, save perhaps for a smaller inlet restrictor to keep the cars at a more reasonable speed for Conti.



The problem with the idea of P3 in IMSA Lites is a simple matter of cost. The LMP3 cost cap is in excess of $200,000, though I'm told the cars are selling for a little under 200K.

It will come down to who is willing to pay IMSA the most to be the spec engine.
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