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Old 27 Jul 2017, 23:11 (Ref:3754911)   #626
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I'm not surprised. What was more surprising was Sauber putting together a deal with Honda in the first place, considering the issues with the PU.
Last year's Ferrari engines appear to be very little better than the Honda lump and are probably orders of magnitude more expensive than what was proposed by Honda. So on the surface the Honda deal would appear to provide the possibility of a developing PU and less cost!
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 13:20 (Ref:3755077)   #627
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and are probably orders of magnitude more expensive than what was proposed by Honda. So on the surface the Honda deal would appear to provide the possibility of a developing PU and less cost!
But not if the Ferrari lumps are provided cheap because Sauber 'opt' to run a Ferrari protege in Leclerc...
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 03:00 (Ref:3755269)   #628
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But not if the Ferrari lumps are provided cheap because Sauber 'opt' to run a Ferrari protege in Leclerc...
Good point!
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 17:16 (Ref:3756098)   #629
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They certainly improved today, with Alonso 6th and Vandoorne 10th. I hope they continue to improve.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 18:23 (Ref:3756108)   #630
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 20:00 (Ref:3756155)   #631
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yes finally the honda unit seems to be improving
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 20:23 (Ref:3756165)   #632
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I think people need to realise that you can't say the Honda unit is improving. Fred has always said the chassis is good enough and this is a track where chassis matters more than horsepower. So I don't expect the same result at Spa and Monza
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 21:27 (Ref:3756189)   #633
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I think people need to realise that you can't say the Honda unit is improving. Fred has always said the chassis is good enough and this is a track where chassis matters more than horsepower. So I don't expect the same result at Spa and Monza
Nor do I (yet) but at least the power units lasted the race distance this time, that's a step forward but of course it is only one race at this stage.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 23:06 (Ref:3756211)   #634
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Nor do I (yet) but at least the power units lasted the race distance this time, that's a step forward but of course it is only one race at this stage.
There are rumors about PU upgrade at Spa. Is that plausible?
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 00:11 (Ref:3756217)   #635
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You'd think that with the summer break Honda might have a little more time without the pressure of running races to bring in an upgrade. Logical to do it for Spa as it'll get a good workout at a power track, if it's ready.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 04:05 (Ref:3756240)   #636
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Alonso is that good, although over shadowed by the talent and teams Seb and Ham have been with.
in the same Maclaren with Ham it was pettiness and I should be automatic #1 as champion... Ham is very good and Maclaren with ron dennis was his team.

Sebastian is also freaking great, and in Ferrari - alonso was in the awkward years- the team couldnt pull it together.

let's hope Honda rises soon enough.
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Old 1 Aug 2017, 05:13 (Ref:3756589)   #637
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Are the teams allowed to use whatever engines they want in the Hungary test ?
If so will Honda have several different more powerful PU's to try ? or have they run out of ideas on how to get more power along with reliability.
I know these units take time to install, but surely they could run one new/upgraded unit per day, installing the different units overnight.
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 11:24 (Ref:3757963)   #638
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I see that according to Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ault-this-year) Honda are claiming they're going to overtake Renault by the end of the year. Knowing his innate ability of being in the wrong place at the wrong time does this confirm that Alonso will stay at McLaren and they will have Renault engines next season?
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 11:30 (Ref:3757967)   #639
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After they only just had their first problem free race of the season, they're already claiming they will overtake Renault. Leave it ou
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3757978)   #640
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As a Honda fan it's difficult to be optimistic given prior promises and expectations have not been met. But with that being said... things seem to be trending in the right direction. Reliability is improving. It seems like they are making progress on incremental improvements to the total power unit as well as ongoing mapping. Alonso may be playing tricks with late race engine modes to get fastest laps, but his gap to the front late race (even when not trying to get fast lap) is getting better.

If Renault performance remains static (not a given for sure), I can imagine Honda pulling even with them. Assuming there is not a catastrophic issues (such as Honda leaving the sport), I think they will generally get it right and be "in the mix", but I don't see them overhauling Mercedes before this engine spec ends (2021). But, I have read that people feel if they pull equal to 2017 Renault, that might be better than 2016 Mercedes. But everyone is getting incrementally better and this is 2017, so 2016 power specs don't count much unless your objective is to beat up on the customer teams using older engines.

My larger fear right now is Honda rushing an improved spec and introducing reliability issues. They are under pressure to demonstrate improvements to McLaren and/or other teams that may be a customer in 2018. But with things looking better and better, they may have some room to do the right thing and not rush improvements.

They were testing new stuff in the Hungary test days, but it is not clear if it was incremental improvements, or a test of the next spec (that is expected to have a number combustion chamber design and maybe a new turbo), or a combo of both.

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Old 7 Aug 2017, 14:23 (Ref:3757981)   #641
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An introduction of new spec parts will likely mean rear of field race starts for McLaren for the penalties for using more than their allowance
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 14:34 (Ref:3757983)   #642
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An introduction of new spec parts will likely mean rear of field race starts for McLaren for the penalties for using more than their allowance
It seems that McLaren/Honda has specific tracks (that are not particularly power tracks) in which they don't want to introduce a new spec and incur penalties so that they can score maximum points. But for power tracks (in which points may not be expected), they may be more likely to introduce a new spec and take the penalty??? Spa and Monza are power tracks right? Might we see a new spec after the summer break???

I think taking penalties at this point is just a given. At some point, if a promised upgrade is worth it, then they will do it. Assuming reliability is good, I expect they will also try to factor in the expected longevity of a new unit as well in the decision making process on when to introduce a new spec.

To reduce mileage on newer specs, they probably will also run older specs in things like FP1 (which I think they can do, they just have to pick a spec from their pool of "good" units for qualifying/race)

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Old 7 Aug 2017, 16:09 (Ref:3758001)   #643
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Yes Hungaroring went well for them because a) their chassis is good and b) horsepower doesn't matter as much
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Old 11 Aug 2017, 00:16 (Ref:3758701)   #644
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Yes Hungaroring went well for them because a) their chassis is good and b) horsepower doesn't matter as much
Hopefully it sends a clear message to McLaren's technical partner to pull their socks up!
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Old 11 Aug 2017, 18:36 (Ref:3758880)   #645
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Hopefully it sends a clear message to McLaren's technical partner to pull their socks up!
Indeed, but then Spa last year should've been a catalyst based on Alonso's performance in an underpowered car on a power circuit....

I do think though, that Honda won't make any drastic cock ups any more. It will be a case of the right path but how quickly they speed that path up.
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Old 12 Aug 2017, 08:58 (Ref:3758959)   #646
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If they continue the reliability they had in Hungary they at least starting to go in the right direction
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Old 12 Aug 2017, 13:50 (Ref:3758981)   #647
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 21:47 (Ref:3759217)   #648
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 14:28 (Ref:3759354)   #649
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.


Good God!
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 19:35 (Ref:3759404)   #650
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ASCII Man, you do realise you've just posted an animated gif. I thought I'd mention it just in case.
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