F4 Australia 2015

[Jacal]

Not sure if this belongs here, MODS feel free to move it

You may have heard CAMS is intending to introduce the FIA Formula 4 category into Australian Motorsport in 2015.

There is very limited information being made available by CAMS as to how the introduction of the category will be funded. The recent CAMS questionnaire on Formula 4 suggested that CAMS would own the racecars and possibly cover the operation of the championship. Conservative estimates from within motorsport suggest that an investment of millions would be required.

Each licence holder and car club should assess if they are satisfied with the approach CAMS is taking with the introduction of the Formula 4 category into the circuit racing discipline.

In 2013 the CAMS licence holders were
Circuit 16%
Rally 14%
Off Road 5%
General 65%

Given that this potentially significant investment will be allocated to a small percentage of the CAMS members, licence holders or car clubs should contact CAMS as soon as possible to indicate their support or otherwise of CAMS’ approach or to request specific information from CAMS to satisfy any concerns they may have.

CAMS contact details as on the CAMS website www.cams.com.au, contact your local office or more directly contact the CAMS board representative or State Council Chairman in your state

[GTRMagic]

You would like to think that if CAMS were to be the substantial owner of the F4 chassis and powerplants, if indeed that is their intention, that there is a commercial business case somewhere that details the costs, the benefits, the risks and indeed the opportunities that this path might bring to them.

As ever though, the answer to a class not seen as 'working' seems to be to put another class together, to try and bring new dollars into the sport... except it renders the cars of previously supported series virtually worthless, or at least much reduced in value... so they cant/are discouraged to invest

It would be interesting of the licence fees for all CAMS activities were to increase by x% in order to somehow jump into the commercial space...

[ForumNick]

Wouldn't this be the equivalent of ASIC opening a new Bank/Insurance Company ?

Originally Posted by CAMS Website

Our Core Purpose:

To be a regulator and FIA-delegated authority.....

http://www.cams.com.au/about/about-c...r-core-purpose

Was nothing learn't from the New Zealand debacle, resulting from the Regulator being involved as a (part?) category owner/promoter?

[GTRMagic]

Sure, but CAMS has a commercial arm in the old days with the AMSF.. where a number of high nt worth individuals enjoyed sharing their financial largesse to achieve significant taxation allowances, as well as furthering the racing careers of various supported pilots...

CAMS does not seem to have a commercial business model other than to charge fees to be a member of the local FIA ASN group. They had the opportunity to be a part of the success of V8Supercar til cold feet prevailed...

[EfiOz]

I don't think CAMS owning the chassis was ever on the table. The only models I've ever seen put forth involved the operator or the competitors owning the cars.

[GTRMagic]

Have any competitors put a deposit down?

[mha]

"I don't think CAMS owning the chassis was ever on the table. The only models I've ever seen put forth involved the operator or the competitors owning the cars."

That's certainly the way it was done in the past but it could be that the conditions of operating F4 weren't financially viable for a commercial organisation. Nobody would fund and organise a competition without some expectation of covering costs and returning a profit - even a small one. So CAMS may feel they need to fund it, at least at the beginning, which could upset some of the many CAMS members?

[Jacal]

If this is the course being considered then I can only presume that the call for expressions of interest that went out a couple of months ago wasn't a success.

Even so it would seem a contradiction to consider buying the cars when in the not too distant past it was too expensive and not in its remit for cams to administer categories.

Would this proposal mean cams owns the cars but let someone else administer the category and then who makes the money out of the deal,
or
do they own the cars and run the category, in which case is it doomed like all the others that tried owning the cars and then running them themselves, Who remembers daewoo, mg, lasers, Suzuki swift versions 1 and 2, colt, future tourers, was there a lotus series as well all of which presumably didn't make enough money to sustain them. So do the members keep paying?

[one five five]

So if Formula 4 doesn't answer the bell next year, would CAMS eat humble pie and get back behind Formula Ford again?

This whole thing has been awfully managed on CAMS behalf.

[EfiOz]

I have no idea which way it will go but there is apparently some news on this coming up very soon.

[Aguri]

Originally Posted by one five five

So if Formula 4 doesn't answer the bell next year, would CAMS eat humble pie and get back behind Formula Ford again?

This whole thing has been awfully managed on CAMS behalf.

Formula Ford in the UK is moving to F4 regulations anyway.

What will happen is if F4 takes off it will likely pick up the slack from the end of Australian F3 and Formula Ford.

As long as they keep F4 costs reasonably low the series should gets strong grids in Australia, and provide the main launch pad for Aus/NZ drivers to make it to europe.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Aguri

What will happen is if F4 takes off it will likely pick up the slack from the end of Australian F3 and Formula Ford.

As long as they keep F4 costs reasonably low the series should gets strong grids in Australia, and provide the main launch pad for Aus/NZ drivers to make it to europe.

Where is the evidence that F4 will do a better job than what is/was currently on offer? We are three months off 2015 and bugger all has been spoken about F4 since the launch.

Wasn't F3 supposed to do all the things you mention when it took over the Gold Star?

[Aguri]

Originally Posted by one five five

Where is the evidence that F4 will do a better job than what is/was currently on offer? We are three months off 2015 and bugger all has been spoken about F4 since the launch.

Wasn't F3 supposed to do all the things you mention when it took over the Gold Star?

What is currently on offer?

A formula 3 series that is potentially unsustainable and could be dead in a season or two and a formula ford series that is no longer supported abroad?

It seems to me like CAMS had to choose between going down this route or not having a decent (by international standards) single seat series in the country at all.

Club racers will still race with old spec formula fords and have a great time, and there is still a huge community that supports the class in the UK as well. But the next Ricciardo, Webber or Power won't cut their teeth in the class like in the past.

[GTRMagic]

Sounds like CAMS are in the car owning business now Here

[GTRMagic]

And 7 rounds on the V8SC roster Here

[peckstar]

so seven rounds, mid season start running on v8 card, Will we see them at Bathurst then

[GTRMagic]

Big numbers for a supposed development class..

[Aguri]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Big numbers for a supposed development class..

Worrying numbers, but you have to also take into account where this post is coming from.

If Formula 4 took off these blokes would lose a lot of business to the class because no one would be buying their Formula Fords. It could potentially cut into their formula vee market as well although that is less likely.

I suspect if CAMS went to them instead of Mygale then they would be singing a different tune.

Nonetheless, 200k is too much. CAMS is following the french F4 academy model in leasing cars, however in France they receive corporate sponsorship from Total which lowers the cost somewhat for drivers. I think the same needs to happen in Australia.

[mha]

"Worrying numbers, but you have to also take into account where this post is coming from.

If Formula 4 took off these blokes would lose a lot of business to the class because no one would be buying their Formula Fords. It could potentially cut into their formula vee market as well although that is less likely."

The CAMS announcement did state that the competition would be run on a "Teams basis" but there were no details about how that will work. Maybe the driver pays the lease fees etc to CAMS and then takes the car to a team to run or maybe the teams lease the cars from CAMS and then secure drivers ......... who knows? But either way the costs of running and engineering the car, transport, accommodation, travel for team people etc need to be included.

So maybe these figures are a more accurate picture of the actual costs, regardless of the source?

[gomick]

Too expensive & will have 5 or 6 cars on the grid at that price - its a junior category for 15/16 year olds, who the hell has $200k

How much does a season of "Aussie Racing Cars" cost?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by gomick

Too expensive & will have 5 or 6 cars on the grid at that price - its a junior category for 15/16 year olds, who the hell has $200k

Mum & dad get to mortgage the family home a bit harder I guess...

Of course that price at $200k doesnt include dragging the family entourage to every event alongside the young pilot... dad, mum, sister, uncle, brother & a few more.. airfares.. motels.. hire cars.. the dollars can soon rack up to even more mega levels!

A bigger mortgage is but a bank manager's meeting away after all..

Originally Posted by gomick

How much does a season of "Aussie Racing Cars" cost?

There doesnt seem to be a full house 'arrive and drive' squad in ARC as there is in the various open wheeler formulas.

If the car starts the year after a full birthday, and nothing breaks, and there is no crash damage, and no testing (because nobody seems to test) it has been said n ARC car can run for around $40k...

Plus entourage..

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Aguri

Worrying numbers, but you have to also take into account where this post is coming from.

A team can do FF a bit cheaper than that, but what do you compromise? Dad & son (or daughter these days..) can load up the family Commodore wagon and tow the home-prepared FF in its trailer all across the country. If they are rich there might be a shared engineering resource.

It would be a bloody hard was to do it.. but it can (and has!) been done. Quite successfully too.

The difference between the home grown teams, and the likes of Spectrum or Sonic or Anglo, is that the proprietors of those squads need to pay their employees for their work. Employees with largely specialist skills in their type of car, and connections to other cars in the same squad of a similar operating environment.

The CAMS model for F4 seems to be favouring this method too...

[gomick]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If the car starts the year after a full birthday, and nothing breaks, and there is no crash damage, and no testing (because nobody seems to test) it has been said n ARC car can run for around $40k...

Plus entourage..

5 times more for F4 - I could handle a season of F4 costing $60 or $70k.

What does the chassis cost? CAMS should order 25 for example & the same car should be used for 5 years. All cars should be in-house & when you turn up on a weekend you don't get the same car as the previous round!
Rich teams will only get the best out of the car (with a pay driver) & the talented will miss out again. I don't think that is the objective at F4 level motorsports!

[Aguri]

http://www.cams.com.au/media/news/la...4-championship

CAMS has gone into a bit more detail number wise today. Few cost cutting measures such as having suppliers bring spares, tyre and fuel to the race meetings to cut down transport costs for competitors.

In an ideal world the fuel and tyre sponsors would subsidise their product in return for more exposure but it doesn't look like this will happen unfortunately.

[GTRMagic]

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