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Old 30 Mar 2013, 17:15 (Ref:3226967)   #26
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Are we talking about the same thing in many different threads ?
As usual yes...
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Old 30 Mar 2013, 17:23 (Ref:3226970)   #27
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team orders, rigging results are pretty much the same thing don't you think
Not even close...Team orders are given for a reason, by the team of which the driver is *one* member contracted to drive the car in a manner that is agreeable with the team, which is why there are team bosses !
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Old 30 Mar 2013, 22:24 (Ref:3227051)   #28
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So why promote betting on a sport that can be manipulated rather than just play out......

I don't bet by the way, Just found this aspect interesting.
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Old 30 Mar 2013, 23:31 (Ref:3227069)   #29
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Every race is rigged. Tell the people.
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Old 30 Mar 2013, 23:41 (Ref:3227070)   #30
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"Rigged" is fixing the result through secretive and forbidden practices. The teams are upfront about team orders and the governing body says they are legal thus the races are not "rigged".

"Rigged" would occur if there was a blanket ban on team orders and thus if an unlucky number two performed a sneaky switcheroo and then claimed "gearbox problem" as an excuse with a twinkle in the eye and a wry smile; that would be rigged.

Bookies would adjust the odds on all the known number twos accordingly. You could still could make a left field bet on a no.2 and then if in the race he was trapped at the front and the no.1 was way behind or else a team might just decide not to issue team orders on that occasion...et al
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Old 30 Mar 2013, 23:52 (Ref:3227072)   #31
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Every race is rigged. Tell the people.
I am typing as fast as I can...
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 00:18 (Ref:3227080)   #32
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Every race is rigged. Tell the people.
Surprise is people not knowing that...
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 01:07 (Ref:3227089)   #33
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There are many ways to rig a race. You're citing some of the illegal ones here. Team orders happen to be a legal form of race rigging. They fix the outcome of the part of the race they affect... there's is no getting away from that fact.
fixed, altered, slanted, changed, not as intended, to cheat.
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 07:33 (Ref:3227134)   #34
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And that definition is from where?
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 08:05 (Ref:3227143)   #35
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Ah, the useage of language.
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 11:28 (Ref:3227193)   #36
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Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
"Rigged" is fixing the result through secretive and forbidden practices. The teams are upfront about team orders and the governing body says they are legal thus the races are not "rigged".

"Rigged" would occur if there was a blanket ban on team orders and thus if an unlucky number two performed a sneaky switcheroo and then claimed "gearbox problem" as an excuse with a twinkle in the eye and a wry smile; that would be rigged.

Bookies would adjust the odds on all the known number twos accordingly. You could still could make a left field bet on a no.2 and then if in the race he was trapped at the front and the no.1 was way behind or else a team might just decide not to issue team orders on that occasion...et al
To an extent you're right here. The dictionary definition of the verb rig is to manipulate fraudulently, so I stand corrected.

A race is a contest of speed. A contest is a struggle for victory. To struggle is to contend with an adversary. When those 'struggling' are instructed not to, we don't have a contest and we don't have a race. The outcome is no longer unpredictable. It has been manipulated... but it hasn't manipulated fraudulently.
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Old 31 Mar 2013, 13:02 (Ref:3227217)   #37
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You see - we can agree on something......!
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Old 1 Apr 2013, 20:11 (Ref:3227713)   #38
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Ah, the usage of language.
I'm an English teacher and this has turned into something of a semantic debate. I think there are strong feelings on the side of the critics regarding the alteration of a race result that team orders entail. I'm not a huge fan of them as I've said in other discussions, but I think you have to see that the structure of motorsport has long included this sort of thing and it is a long way from the kind of fixing that has been referred to in other sports.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 09:05 (Ref:3227888)   #39
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I'm an English teacher and this has turned into something of a semantic debate. I think there are strong feelings on the side of the critics regarding the alteration of a race result that team orders entail. I'm not a huge fan of them as I've said in other discussions, but I think you have to see that the structure of motorsport has long included this sort of thing and it is a long way from the kind of fixing that has been referred to in other sports.
I have no problem with this view. A coach can dictate to his players in say, hockey, rugby or soccer, that they move to a defensive stance once a strong lead gap is established and that players don't exhaust themselves physically over the closing stages or replace them to preserve the status of their most valuable players.
Preservation of advantage gained does not relate to 'rigging' a result....
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 10:21 (Ref:3227910)   #40
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I think some of us are learning that F1 is a team sport first and foremost and a drivers championship second of all.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 10:35 (Ref:3227920)   #41
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I have no problem with this view. A coach can dictate to his players in say, hockey, rugby or soccer, that they move to a defensive stance once a strong lead gap is established and that players don't exhaust themselves physically over the closing stages or replace them to preserve the status of their most valuable players.
Preservation of advantage gained does not relate to 'rigging' a result....
You don't have a players championship in hockey, soccer or rugby. The players only have a team objective. If this was the case in F1, there would be no issue whatsoever with team orders. The problem is, the blue riband of F1 is the WDC and when team orders fiddle with that, people understandably start to get agitated.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 11:46 (Ref:3227946)   #42
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You don't have a players championship in hockey, soccer or rugby. The players only have a team objective. If this was the case in F1, there would be no issue whatsoever with team orders. The problem is, the blue riband of F1 is the WDC and when team orders fiddle with that, people understandably start to get agitated.
Spot on.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 11:53 (Ref:3227951)   #43
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Well maybe those people should question whether the WDC truly is the blue ribband?

Actually, I happily accept that it is and historically always has been, borne out of the popular admiration of drivers as latter day knights, risking all for fame, fortune, glamour and girls.

If we accept that, then why can we not accept that motorsport is a team sport with an individual objective, and as such it is perfectly legitimate for the team to favour their best chance of victory.

Here's a question. Are any of those who dislike team orders in F1 fans of cycling?
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 12:12 (Ref:3227978)   #44
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You don't have a players championship in hockey, soccer or rugby. The players only have a team objective. If this was the case in F1, there would be no issue whatsoever with team orders. The problem is, the blue riband of F1 is the WDC and when team orders fiddle with that, people understandably start to get agitated.
Most sports give out a whole seres of individual awards to its players.
Hockey, nba, nfl etc etc

More so the winners of these awards usually end up commanding much larger salaries, sell more sneakers and generally are regarded as better. You think they all put team success over personal glory? You don't think their team mates make sacrifices to have them on their team?

How is it different.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 12:20 (Ref:3227981)   #45
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Most sports give out a whole seres of individual awards to its players.
Hockey, nba, nfl etc etc

More so the winners of these awards usually end up commanding much larger salaries, sell more sneakers and generally are regarded as better. You think they all put team success over personal glory? You don't think their team mates make sacrifices to have them on their team?

How is it different.
The difference is there's a championship purely for the driver to win as opposed to a team championship. Sportsmen and women do win awards in team sports and there is also Man of the Match and MVP but these aren't individual championships within the team sport they participate in, they are just awards.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 13:14 (Ref:3228003)   #46
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The difference is there's a championship purely for the driver to win as opposed to a team championship. Sportsmen and women do win awards in team sports and there is also Man of the Match and MVP but these aren't individual championships within the team sport they participate in, they are just awards.
not so. most sports have awards for scoring/points leaders. how is that different than a drivers title? not everyone wins the team title every year so naturally not everyone is playing for the same title.

but even if F1 is different, and to some degree i do agree, how is that relevant? if anything it makes team orders to place emphasis on winning the WDC more understandable not less.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 13:49 (Ref:3228023)   #47
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F1 seems to be a team sport with team orders but with the teams championship being a secondary issue [??????].

I picked to a funny old sport to take an interest in.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 13:50 (Ref:3228024)   #48
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not so. most sports have awards for scoring/points leaders. how is that different than a drivers title? not everyone wins the team title every year so naturally not everyone is playing for the same title.
I think there's a world of difference. The WDC is a designated championship. The only sports I can think of, off the top of my head, where you have team participation and where the individual can personally triumph are cycling and Athlectics

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but even if F1 is different, and to some degree i do agree, how is that relevant? if anything it makes team orders to place emphasis on winning the WDC more understandable not less.
You just pointed out the relevance, in that it places the emphasis on team orders on winning the WDC more understandable.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 14:25 (Ref:3228037)   #49
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I think there's a world of difference. The WDC is a designated championship. The only sports I can think of, off the top of my head, where you have team participation and where the individual can personally triumph are cycling and Athlectics
well hockey, NBA, Football leagues all have scoring titles. not everyone who plays will have a realistic shot for the team title so sometimes athletes play for individual triumphs and often with great personal benefit to themselves, which given that a teams budget is finite a larger salary means a smaller pot for the rest of the team. but all really besides the point.

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You just pointed out the relevance, in that it places the emphasis on team orders on winning the WDC more understandable.
well now we are just dancing in circles!

maybe im missing something but i though you (and others against team orders) were saying that team orders are not understandable under any circumstance because cheating is anathema to sports competition.

if the drivers title is so important (because F1 is different than any other individual title/award/trophy in other team sports) shouldn't you guys be more accepting of team orders.

im guessing i should just go back and reread this thread in greater detail as this has probably already been answered.
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Old 2 Apr 2013, 14:30 (Ref:3228040)   #50
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Sports like hockey, soccer, rugby etc... are not good examples to parallel with F1 because there is no individual objective. There is only a team objective.

A better parallel might be swimming. My son is a member of a swimming squad [team ?] and they field a couple of dozen or so swimmers at a meet. There are points given to each swimmer depending on their finishing position in a race... and they also accrue points for their squad. At the end of the meet, there's a championship order for the swimmers, and one for the squads.

Some swimmers from the same squad are up against each other in the same race. In those situations, it's each swimmer for himself or herself. In considering the parallel to F1, would the head coach [team manager ?] ever ask a swimmer to give way to another in order to allow his/her preferred choice to win gold rather than silver [if they were 1-2 at the time] ? Can you imagine such a scenario at Olympic level ?
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