Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22 Jun 2003, 21:50 (Ref:639524)   #1
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mansell v Senna Hill v Schuey

Just interested in everyones a opinion on this

I have always Believed that On the right day when the mood was right Mansell could have beaten Senna in Equal equipment no argument that over the coarse of a season Senna would have been ahead but at Silverstone for example with the crowd Behind him Mansell could have won

Now I don't think the same is True of Hill and Schumacher now don't get me wrong I am a big big Damon Hill fan even more so than I ever was of Mansell but I believe in equal equipment Schumacher would always win

all of the above is purely gut feel as we could never know for sure but what do you lot think

Discuss
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2003, 22:03 (Ref:639548)   #2
Damon
Veteran
 
Damon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Hampshire, England
Posts: 5,577
Damon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mansell drove with his heart where as Damon drove with his head. When Nigel really wanted it there was honestly no one in the world that could beat him, even Senna. The pole he pulled out of the bag at Silverstone '91 or his close in and pass of Piquet (again at Silverstone) in '87 are but two examples.

On the odd occasion Damon could have days like that as well (Japan '94), but what he didn't have, that Nigel did, was the ability to take any car by the scruff of the neck and make it the quickest car out there. Of course this was in the day when the driver had the ability to do that as they were not restricted by gadgets.
Damon is offline  
__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2003, 22:06 (Ref:639551)   #3
Valve Bounce
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Australia
Home :)
Posts: 7,491
Valve Bounce has been held in scrutiny for further testing
I think SchM won a race after his car caught fire - not a bad effort.
Valve Bounce is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2003, 22:09 (Ref:639557)   #4
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Japan '94. I was going to mention that too.

There was also Hungary '97. Listen to this: www.damon-and-the-conrods.co.uk sound file Hungary 1997
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2003, 23:32 (Ref:639621)   #5
Svend
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 66
Svend should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yeah yeah

chicken skin
Svend is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 00:47 (Ref:639659)   #6
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by Damon
When Nigel really wanted it there was honestly no one in the world that could beat him, even Senna.
Agreed on this, when Nigel was really on it, there was no one who could touch him. I'm not saying he was the best driver ever, but when he was racing, he was certainly the most exciting.
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 01:24 (Ref:639678)   #7
f1manoz
Veteran
 
f1manoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Australia
Lincolnshire, UK
Posts: 7,294
f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Nigel is under-rated completely as a driving talent. Whenever I read journo's talk about him, it's always 'bravery' and 'excitement' but they never talk about the talent which he did have. I think it's a shame. He was not in the naturally gifted class like a Senna or Clark, but he was certainly one of the greatest.

As for Hill, he was psychologically incapable of dealing with TGF.
f1manoz is offline  
__________________
Sunderland Til I Die!
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 01:49 (Ref:639689)   #8
Chui
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Southfield, Michigan USA
Posts: 64
Chui should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Re: Mansell v Senna Hill v Schuey

Quote:
Originally posted by Hungary 89
Just interested in everyones a opinion on this

I have always Believed that On the right day when the mood was right Mansell could have beaten Senna in Equal equipment no argument that over the coarse of a season Senna would have been ahead but at Silverstone for example with the crowd Behind him Mansell could have won

Now I don't think the same is True of Hill and Schumacher now don't get me wrong I am a big big Damon Hill fan even more so than I ever was of Mansell but I believe in equal equipment Schumacher would always win

all of the above is purely gut feel as we could never know for sure but what do you lot think

Discuss
I agree with your assessment of Senna vs Mansell... as does Mansell. In fact, I mentioned this on atlasf1.com not more than two days ago.

I do think Senna would beat him over the course of a season and more than likely outqualify him, too. But Mansell was the epitome of "Olde John Bull" and you had to love him for it. Well, at least ON the track.
Chui is offline  
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." ~ John Steinbeck
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 07:01 (Ref:639768)   #9
Valve Bounce
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Australia
Home :)
Posts: 7,491
Valve Bounce has been held in scrutiny for further testing
Quote:
Originally posted by f1manoz
Nigel is under-rated completely as a driving talent. Whenever I read journo's talk about him, it's always 'bravery' and 'excitement' but they never talk about the talent which he did have. I think it's a shame. He was not in the naturally gifted class like a Senna or Clark, but he was certainly one of the greatest.

As for Hill, he was psychologically incapable of dealing with TGF.
Actually, anyone who had seen any of Nigel's F1 races would be struck by his bravery and excitement. However, without talent, he could not possibly have done what he did. This is simply something that was understood, but of secondary importance to the thrill of watching this guy. We are talking major adrenelin rush whenever Nigel went racing. Maybe we can get him to give Ralf a few pointers, instead of Ralf wanting to count gearbox bolts on his brother's car.

Don't agree with the jibe about Damon though. It was his taking on SchM at Adelaide which gave the latter the opportunity to prang him.
Valve Bounce is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 07:45 (Ref:639800)   #10
Mattracer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,370
Mattracer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Maybe we can get him to give Ralf a few pointers, instead of Ralf wanting to count gearbox bolts on his brother's car.
Well said.

Mansell and Senna were both "heart" racers. Not particularly reliant on tactics, guile or stealth, like Piquet and Prost. In this aspect they were from he same mould.

Motivation-wise, Senna was doing it for himself, breaking his own records and challenging his own boundaries. Mansell was doing it for the crowds.

Hill and TGF are similar in that they are precise and accurate drivers who rely heavily on data and engineering development.

Senna is renowned for his total recall on everything but arguably he didn't need it to make the car give him a lap time, and Mansell could make the car go around someone else because he told it that it would (except at Monaco '92 )
Mattracer is offline  
__________________
Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine

Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 08:28 (Ref:639831)   #11
ferrari_mark
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Devon England
Posts: 72
ferrari_mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
On his day DH could be a match for anyone. He should never have let the 1996 season go down to the wire though and his last season for Jordan was a season too far, but he'll always be one of my favourite drivers. MS always had more raw talent, but DH was very hard working and deserved to be the 1996 WDC.
ferrari_mark is offline  
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya.
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 08:52 (Ref:639859)   #12
climb
Veteran
 
climb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
St Pierre and Miquelon
closer than you thought!
Posts: 4,512
climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
IMO there is no comparison between DH and MS.
With all the respect for Damon, it's like comparing Britney Spears to Ella Fitzgerald.
DH got some success defeating JV (and thats' good) but he did it in a year when two cars were on the grid to win: the 2 Williams.
MS is on another level, frankly. He was able to win in different cars, who (except for 2001 and 2002) were not the best.
He proved fast in any kind of circuit, consistent through the years, able to keep motivation high and do his best in difficult circumstances (Monza 2000, after SPA humiliation)
and so on..
Sorry, but in my opinion any attempt to compare MS to DH is a cruelty to DH himself

Last edited by climb; 23 Jun 2003 at 08:53.
climb is offline  
__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly
P.Simon
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 10:05 (Ref:639912)   #13
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
I think it's fair to say that MS was better than DH, however, DH obviously had the talent to be worthy of a WDC, after all, not many actually acheive it.
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 10:29 (Ref:639928)   #14
ferrari_mark
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Devon England
Posts: 72
ferrari_mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If MS had been in a more competative car in 1996 it may have been a different story. DH did make a few mistakes, but luckily JV was still leaning and wasn't quite in a possition to take advantage.
ferrari_mark is offline  
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya.
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 10:57 (Ref:639979)   #15
Mark Webber
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Australia
Australia
Posts: 2,685
Mark Webber has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
MS was and is better than DH ever was . and IMO Senna was better than NM even on Mansell's best day
As for Senna v Shuey again in IMHO MS wins this one
Mark Webber is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 10:59 (Ref:639981)   #16
ASCII Man
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,979
ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
MS never stood a chance against Senninho.
Ayrton would have taken both Schumi's titles in '94/'95 if it hadn't been for that stupid weekend at Imola.
ASCII Man is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 12:13 (Ref:640060)   #17
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
There's no point in comparing Senna to Schumahcer - Schumacher was at the start of his career when we lost Senna. Both are the best of their eras in my view, although Mansell was closer to Senna than Hill to Schumacher, but personal feeling will always cloud Senna v Schumacher.

Mansell's guts and bravery put him above any other driver of the day, but it's a shame Honda's decline coincided with Renault's rise, meaning that we didn't see them both in great machinery at the same time. One race which showed what masters they both were was Silverstone 1988 - Senna had a dominant car, Mansell a bucket. Senna won by miles ona day when Prost wimped out in the wet, and Mansell fought from 11th to 2nd. Ayrton's qualifying pace was amazing, but Mansell could pull a lap out of nowhere as well, especially at home. It's ironic that Senna's Brazil record is quite weak, but bad luck in 1988 and 1989 surely cost him 2 wins there.

It's hard not to respect Damon as a man, he was honest, hard-tryin, committed and dealt with difficult events such as Adelaide, Senna's death, his father's death and the subsequent financial woes his mother had, and his son being born with Down's Syndrome extremely well. Caricaturing Hill V Schumacher as Good V Evil, Rebel V Imperial was quite accurate.

But on racing ability Schumacher is well clear. 1996 should've been easy against a rookie driver, and he still nearly threw it away with a succession fo poor starts and elementary errors. In 1995 he was frankly awful after Silverstone, with a succession of poor drives gifting Schumacher the title. he seemed to be at his best when circumstances were bad, although at Spa 1997 Diniz outqualified him in the other Arrows - hardly the mark of a champion.
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 12:17 (Ref:640067)   #18
RWC
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location:
Qld.-australia
Posts: 2,083
RWC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mansel may indeed have been able to beat(or equaled)senna on a good day but hill would NEVER quite come close to shuey
RWC is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 15:29 (Ref:640305)   #19
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by RWC
Mansel may indeed have been able to beat(or equaled)senna on a good day but hill would NEVER quite come close to shuey
Japan 94, Hungary 97? Doesn't sound like NEVER to me.
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 17:44 (Ref:640476)   #20
Damon
Veteran
 
Damon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
United Kingdom
Hampshire, England
Posts: 5,577
Damon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hill proved his worth with that drive at Hungary 97. It wasn't tactics or luck, it was a hell of a driver dragging a dog of a car into the lead. No, he wasn't as good as Schu overall but that wasn't helped by the fact that when he began in F1 he was only 3 years younger than Schu is today. He simply started to late.
Damon is offline  
__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 17:55 (Ref:640487)   #21
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Boots'

Yes I accept that Damon had a shakey latter half of the 96 season but remember he had first been told by Autosport he was about to get the sack then by Williams that he wasn't then by Williams that he was sacked. That has to have an effect on you psycologically.

When things were all sorted at and he had a holiday to get his head back in gear he came back with one of the drives of his life in Japan to comprehensively TAKE the title

Make no mistake Hill was IMO a deserving champion that year
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 17:58 (Ref:640490)   #22
ferrari_mark
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Devon England
Posts: 72
ferrari_mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
He would have won that race had it not been for a faulty hydrolic seal or something I think they said at the time that they only cost about 50p to buy.
ferrari_mark is offline  
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya.
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 18:16 (Ref:640512)   #23
bacon sandwich
Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
United Kingdom
basildon essex
Posts: 327
bacon sandwich should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Damon rattled Schuey enough that he hit the wall in '94 trying to keep him behind, however there is no doubt Schuey is a fantastic driver - but Hill to me will always be the man - look at Adelaide '94 - Damon never said a thing - already Schuey is whingeing this year about the points system.
He's better as he's got older and had a family I s'pose but the arrogance of Schumacher in the mid 90's still astounds me.
It should still now be Damo - 2 WDC Schumacher - 4 (cheating TGF!!)
bacon sandwich is offline  
__________________
Only SMARTIES have the answer.....
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 18:30 (Ref:640542)   #24
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well said Bacon Sandwich

That moment in 1994 where he kept his mouth shut Galvonised my admiration of Damon Hill

I was a huge Mansell fan he gave me my love of this sport but he could never have let someone get away with that (they would have been dragging him off)

Hills dignaty saw me worship him from then on

However here's a comment that may surprise you

IMO Schuey deserved the title that year the only reason Hill was in position to win was because of political wranglings behind the scenes

Thats not to take anything away from Damon though when the opportunity presented its self he rose to the occasion
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2003, 18:36 (Ref:640550)   #25
ferrari_mark
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Devon England
Posts: 72
ferrari_mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Adelaide was never proved to be clear cut cheating by MS like it was in Jerez. For Jerez MS has held up his hands and admitted that he had a rush of blood and turned in on JV. He knows he did wrong and it will always over shadow his career. But in Adelaide MS went off hit the wall, DH came up behind him and not knowing that the car was damaged went for the gap. Maybe DH should have got up close behind him and passed him on the straight as he knew that even if MS car wasn't damaged he would have lost momentum. At the time I thought it was MS fault and that he deliberatly blocked DH, but the more I see it the more it looks like a racing incident.
ferrari_mark is offline  
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya.
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Next Mansell, Hill or Button DEADDUCK National & International Single Seaters 27 17 Feb 2005 22:51
Mansell & Hill for Premer 1 GP? Invincible Formula One 26 15 Nov 2001 15:05
MG ......... Mansell, Hill or Neal in 3rd Car??? Guy Goddard Touring Car Racing 10 2 Sep 2001 20:23
Mansell v. Senna - Spa 1987 Liz Motorsport History 3 5 Aug 2001 10:34


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.